Police involved shooting in Buffalo/Cheektowaga. Interesting video

Saltwater60

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spat said:
The only difference between police and a street gang is the rule of law.

If the police abandon that, then they *are* the bad guys that should get what they have coming to them.

If they didn't have a legitimate warrant *at the time*, they they *are* the bad guys here. You can't correct that after the fact.
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If They had a warrant they’d have said open up we have a warrant and you would have seen it on the recording. The cop wouldn’t have said what I’m just nocking on the door to punch out the panel of the door. I agree bad entry that led to this guys death. Could happen to any one of us if it happened to him. Shame on the system if a warrant will be made up with the proper time and date.
The shooting is likely justified but should have never gotten to that point. Makes me sick cops lie all the time then get pissed when people lie to them. They lied about trying to return his lost property. I do not think this is ok and this is why I and many others like the cops less and less and don’t trust them.
It’s also why the chief won’t say their actions are justified because I’ll bet he’s not sure if the warrant will show up as needed to make this legit and justified.
 
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Saltwater60 said:
If t

If They had a warrant they’d have said open up we have a warrant and you would have seen it on the recording. The cop wouldn’t have said what I’m just nocking on the door to punch out the panel of the door. I agree bad entry that led to this guys death. Could happen to any one of us if it happened to him. Shame on the system if a warrant will be made up with the proper time and date.
The shooting is likely justified but should have never gotten to that point. Makes me sick cops lie all the time then get pissed when people lie to them. They lied about trying to return his lost property. I do not think this is ok and this is why I and many others like the cops less and less and don’t trust them.
It’s also why the chief won’t say their actions are justified because I’ll bet he’s not sure if the warrant will show up as needed to make this legit and justified.
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I'm not sure I'd say the shooting was justified.

You can't claim self defense if you're the one who initiates the conflict.

Illegally breaking the front door certainly qualifies there.

If there really was no warrant, then this is murder, and a badge doesn't change that.
 
spat

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GOPerfect said:
The video does state that a warrant was filed for.

I am sure a warrant with correct dates and times will be listed
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But filed for is not sufficient.

The warrant has to be signed *before* it's valid.

And you can't "catch that up" afterwards.

So, if you're implying that people are going to back date the warrant's time of approval (as you seem to be), then that's a major problem. The judge that cooperates with that should go to prison, along with everyone else involved.
 
GOPerfect

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spat said:
But filed for is not sufficient.

The warrant has to be signed *before* it's valid.

And you can't "catch that up" afterwards.

So, if you're implying that people are going to back date the warrant's time of approval (as you seem to be), then that's a major problem. The judge that cooperates with that should go to prison, along with everyone else involved.
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Department says it was filed, good enough for me.

Great work , great shooting.
 
Drinkthekoolaid

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I watched it.

I have no idea about if there is a legal warrant ahead of this operation or if it will be pencil whipped after the fact to fit the situation.

My immediate thoughts are that girl has no business being there. She's trying hard not to laugh and giggle in the stairwell when cop 1 is telling the guy they are trying to return his property. She is not professional and mentally focused on her task. She is not prepared for her duties and gets in the way more than supporting or doing anything productive.

Cop 3 who busts in the door greatly escalated the situation. If he did that without a proper legal warrant being in place already I have a problem with his actions.



If there was no warrant and it was "pending" or something, they should not have forced their way into the guys house. When he didn't answer they should either patiently wait or move along and come back when there is a warrant.

If there was a warrant the entire approach and strategy is very confusing and doesn't make a lot of sense. They did not seem remotely prepared and aware or focused when They kicked the door in to go attempt to make an arrest.

I'm thinking this over and trying to put the actions past my BS detector and something is off about the body language of the cops just relaxing milling about the hallway knocking on his door. If they had a search warrant to go arrest a known dangerous criminal I would expect them to be more "switched on" and professional than that. Something isn't adding up to me.
 
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GOPerfect

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Drinkthekoolaid said:
I watched it.

I have no idea about if there is a legal warrant ahead of this operation or if it will be pencil whipped after the fact to fit the situation.

My immediate thoughts are that girl has no business being there. She's trying hard not to laugh and giggle in the stairwell when cop 1 is telling the guy they are trying to return his property. She is not professional and mentally focused on her task. She is not prepared for her duties and gets in the way more than supporting or doing anything productive.

Cop 3 who busts in the door greatly escalated the situation. If he did that without a proper legal warrant being in place already I have a problem with his actions.



If there was no warrant and it was "pending" or something, they should not have forced their way into the guys house. When he didn't answer they should either patiently wait or move along and come back when there is a warrant.

If there was a warrant the entire approach and strategy is very confusing and doesn't make a lot of sense. They did not seem remotely prepared and aware or focused when They kicked the door in to go attempt to make an arrest.

I'm thinking this over and trying to put the actions past my BS detector and something is off about the body language of the cops just relaxing milling about the hallway knocking on his door. If they had a search warrant to go arrest a known dangerous criminal I would expect them to be more "switched on" and professional than that. Something isn't adding up to me.
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Great assessment....
 
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A couple weeks ago I get notified that there's a warrant for a guys arrest from an incident earlier that day.
No warrant in the system yet.
I contact the detective Sgt involved and the warrant was signed less than 15 min before.

Just because the warrant isn't in the system yet doesnt mean it hasnt been signed by a judge.
 
Saltwater60

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spat said:
I'm not sure I'd say the shooting was justified.

You can't claim self defense if you're the one who initiates the conflict.

Illegally breaking the front door certainly qualifies there.

If there really was no warrant, then this is murder, and a badge doesn't change that.
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Correct That’s why I said it shouldn’t have gotten that far.
 
spat

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Rocpo said:
A couple weeks ago I get notified that there's a warrant for a guys arrest from an incident earlier that day.
No warrant in the system yet.
I contact the detective Sgt involved and the warrant was signed less than 15 min before.

Just because the warrant isn't in the system yet doesnt mean it hasnt been signed by a judge.
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But you did check to make sure it was signed first.

That's a critical point. "He's going to sign it" isn't good enough.
 
Saltwater60

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spat said:
But you did check to make sure it was signed first.

That's a critical point. "He's going to sign it" isn't good enough.
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Hence in this case why the chief will not say their actions are justified or not. Seems kind of odd to me. He knows people aren’t this stupid.
 
VietnamEraVet

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After I watched the video, I get the feeling that something stinks here. Of course, there is a lot we do not know at this point. But a few things bother me about it.

First, - whatever happened was apparently in Cheektowaga, and happened two days earlier. So, why were CheektoVegas cops there in the City of Buffalo? Sure doesn't seem like "exigent circumstances" to me.

Second, I dislike the BS the first cop spewed about being there to return his belongings. Absolute bullshit. While the deceased apparently had issues, he was within his rights to not open his door, nor was he required to respond to them, - which would have confirmed that he was inside his apartment. That kind of crap doesn't score any points with me.

Third, if they did have a search warrant, why the Hell wasn't it City of Buffalo cops there telling him that they had a warrant, and that they were going to break down his door if he didn't open it?

Fourth, when the third cop kicked the bottom of the door panel, and discovered it was damaged / loose, he proceeded to knock the entire center of the door out (while joking that he was just "knocking" on it). At that point, the cop actually pushed the door panel into the apartment, and rushed into the apartment right behind the door panel.

The deceased, who did have a large knife in his hand at that point engaged with the cop, and got shot dead. But up until the cop burst into his apartment with the door panel in front of him, the deceased had basically been minding his own business inside his apartment.

I am very, very curious to learn the full story here, and exactly what the story is regarding any search warrant.
 
spat

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VietnamEraVet said:
After I watched the video, I get the feeling that something stinks here. Of course, there is a lot we do not know at this point. But a few things bother me about it.

First, - whatever happened was apparently in Cheektowaga, and happened two days earlier. So, why were CheektoVegas cops there in the City of Buffalo? Sure doesn't seem like "exigent circumstances" to me.

Second, I dislike the BS the first cop spewed about being there to return his belongings. Absolute bullshit. While the deceased apparently had issues, he was within his rights to not open his door, nor was he required to respond to them, - which would have confirmed that he was inside his apartment. That kind of crap doesn't score any points with me.

Third, if they did have a search warrant, why the Hell wasn't it City of Buffalo cops there telling him that they had a warrant, and that they were going to break down his door if he didn't open it?

Fourth, when the third cop kicked the bottom of the door panel, and discovered it was damaged / loose, he proceeded to knock the entire center of the door out (while joking that he was just "knocking" on it). At that point, the cop actually pushed the door panel into the apartment, and rushed into the apartment right behind the door panel.

The deceased, who did have a large knife in his hand at that point engaged with the cop, and got shot dead. But up until the cop burst into his apartment with the door panel in front of him, the deceased had basically been minding his own business inside his apartment.

I am very, very curious to learn the full story here, and exactly what the story is regarding any search warrant.
Click to expand...
If the guy had a 12ga instead of a knife, there might very well be 2 dead cops and the question might very well be whether *his* shoot was justified.

It's not clear that a court wouldn't rule that he was.

So, in any encounter involving deadly force, the single most important consideration is "be the one breathing at the end". Legal considerations are secondary.
 
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spat said:
If the guy had a 12ga instead of a knife, there might very well be 2 dead cops and the question might very well be whether *his* shoot was justified.

It's not clear that a court wouldn't rule that he was.

So, in any encounter involving deadly force, the single most important consideration is "be the one breathing at the end". Legal considerations are secondary.
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I'm not arguing against the cops shooting him after he lunged at them with the knife. I 100% agree with them defending themselves in that case. It is what happened BEFORE that that bothers me. When he was in his apartment with the door locked and secure, who was he threatening? Essentially no different than anyone else in their home with a knife and / or gun in their possession with the door closed and locked, - just as I am right now with a knife and EDC with me. I am not threatening anyone as I sit here in my home with the doors closed and locked.

Admittedly, we don't know the full story here just yet. But bear in mind, that thugs have been known to pretend to be cops while demanding entry. It's everything that transpired BEFORE he raised the knife at the cop that I am asking about.
 
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Saltwater60

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spat said:
If the guy had a 12ga instead of a knife, there might very well be 2 dead cops and the question might very well be whether *his* shoot was justified.

It's not clear that a court wouldn't rule that he was.

So, in any encounter involving deadly force, the single most important consideration is "be the one breathing at the end". Legal considerations are secondary.
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Girl cop surely would have been dead. First male cop possibly. Girl cop should be a dispatcher and not a cop.
 
spat

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VietnamEraVet said:
I'm not arguing against the cops shooting him after he lunged at them with the knife. I 100% agree with them defending themselves in that case. It is what happened BEFORE that that bothers me. When he was in his apartment with the door locked and secure, who was he threatening? Essentially no different than anyone else in their home with a knife and / or gun in their possession with the door closed and locked, - just as I am right now with a knife and EDC with me. I am not threatening anyone as I sit here in my home with the doors closed and locked.

Admittedly, we don't know the full story here just yet. But bear in mind, that thugs have been known to pretend to be cops while demanding entry. It's everything that transpired BEFORE he raised the knife at the cop that I am asking about.
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If breaking down the door wasn't done legally, then nothing that comes after was legally justified either.

OfC, as I stated earlier, if someone's trying to stab you with a knife, you need to end the threat, legally or not.

But if the door was illegally broken, then the shooting was murder.
 
Jem45472

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spat said:
But if the door was illegally broken, then the shooting was murder.
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This is where the problem lies. On video cop3 "knocks" quite a bit harder after noticing broken door while it appears female cop, i believe, places pressure at bottom of door with her foot. Then cop3 acts surprised that his knocking broke the door down. Don't know that you can prove they broke it down, even though we all know that's exactly what they did.
 
Saltwater60

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Jem45472 said:
This is where the problem lies. On video cop3 "knocks" quite a bit harder after noticing broken door while it appears female cop, i believe, places pressure at bottom of door with her foot. Then cop3 acts surprised that his knocking broke the door down. Don't know that you can prove they broke it down, even though we all know that's exactly what they did.
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No me mocks on a door like that cop was. He 100% did it to get the door open and any idiot could tell that. He even joked what I’m just mocking on the door. There’s times to break the rules say if dealing with a rapist, kidnapper, or murderer but this guy was t criminal of the century.
Pretty sad this video proves the left is right at times about the cops. This guy shouldn’t be dead. Even though he wasn’t valuable to society his crime doesn’t fit the punishment imo. I wouldn’t convict the cops of murder but female would be fired as would the male I’m just knocking on the door if I were in charge. Peoples rights mean that much to me.
 
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VietnamEraVet said:
After I watched the video, I get the feeling that something stinks here. Of course, there is a lot we do not know at this point. But a few things bother me about it.

First, - whatever happened was apparently in Cheektowaga, and happened two days earlier. So, why were CheektoVegas cops there in the City of Buffalo? Sure doesn't seem like "exigent circumstances" to me.
Click to expand...
Nope. That would be why the warrant was applied for. However, there was also a TOP in effect at the premises, per the video. Interesting to see who the protected party was.
VietnamEraVet said:
Second, I dislike the BS the first cop spewed about being there to return his belongings. Absolute bullshit. While the deceased apparently had issues, he was within his rights to not open his door, nor was he required to respond to them, - which would have confirmed that he was inside his apartment. That kind of crap doesn't score any points with me.
Click to expand...
You may dislike it, but it's still legal and valid to use a ruse to get the party to the door.

VietnamEraVet said:
Third, if they did have a search warrant, why the Hell wasn't it City of Buffalo cops there telling him that they had a warrant, and that they were going to break down his door if he didn't open it?
Click to expand...

Because it likely wasn't a search warrant, it was more likely an arrest warrant.

Article 120 | Criminal Procedure Law | Warrant of Arrest

A warrant of arrest is a process issued by a local criminal court directing a police officer to arrest a defendant designated
ypdcrime.com ypdcrime.com
I point you specifically to 120.80(4)
Again, it'd be interesting to see if HE was the resident of record or if its a third party (protected by a TOP)
VietnamEraVet said:
Fourth, when the third cop kicked the bottom of the door panel, and discovered it was damaged / loose, he proceeded to knock the entire center of the door out (while joking that he was just "knocking" on it). At that point, the cop actually pushed the door panel into the apartment, and rushed into the apartment right behind the door panel.
Click to expand...
Again, I point you to 120.80(4)
VietnamEraVet said:
The deceased, who did have a large knife in his hand at that point engaged with the cop, and got shot dead. But up until the cop burst into his apartment with the door panel in front of him, the deceased had basically been minding his own business inside his apartment.

I am very, very curious to learn the full story here, and exactly what the story is regarding any search warrant.
Click to expand...
Again, it was likely an Arrest Warrant, not a search warrant, as I don't believe they were searching for evidence of a crime.
 
Saltwater60

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Rocpo said:
Nope. That would be why the warrant was applied for. However, there was also a TOP in effect at the premises, per the video. Interesting to see who the protected party was.

You may dislike it, but it's still legal and valid to use a ruse to get the party to the door.



Because it likely wasn't a search warrant, it was more likely an arrest warrant.

Article 120 | Criminal Procedure Law | Warrant of Arrest

A warrant of arrest is a process issued by a local criminal court directing a police officer to arrest a defendant designated
ypdcrime.com ypdcrime.com
I point you specifically to 120.80(4)
Again, it'd be interesting to see if HE was the resident of record or if its a third party (protected by a TOP)

Again, I point you to 120.80(4)

Again, it was likely an Arrest Warrant, not a search warrant, as I don't believe they were searching for evidence of a crime.
Click to expand...
Funny how cops lie but then get pissed when criminals lie to them.
 
GOPerfect

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Saltwater60 said:
Funny how cops lie but then get pissed when criminals lie to them.
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No law against lying to the Police. As long as false information about ones self is given, extra charges are not there.

Cop asks, "were you there"

Bad guy, "nope"

If it was found out the bad guy was there, no additional charge for the lie.
 
VietnamEraVet

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Rocpo said:
Nope. That would be why the warrant was applied for. However, there was also a TOP in effect at the premises, per the video. Interesting to see who the protected party was.

You may dislike it, but it's still legal and valid to use a ruse to get the party to the door.



Because it likely wasn't a search warrant, it was more likely an arrest warrant.

Article 120 | Criminal Procedure Law | Warrant of Arrest

A warrant of arrest is a process issued by a local criminal court directing a police officer to arrest a defendant designated
ypdcrime.com ypdcrime.com
I point you specifically to 120.80(4)
Again, it'd be interesting to see if HE was the resident of record or if its a third party (protected by a TOP)

Again, I point you to 120.80(4)

Again, it was likely an Arrest Warrant, not a search warrant, as I don't believe they were searching for evidence of a crime.
Click to expand...
Still doesn’t make sense to me. Since when do cops in another town go to a different town in force to make an arrest? He was in Buffalo, so if there was an arrest warrant out on him, seems like it would be up to Buffalo PD to try and arrest him. The Cheektowaga cops were out of their jurisdiction, and it doesn’t appear to be a case of exigent circumstances.
 
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spat

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Jem45472 said:
This is where the problem lies. On video cop3 "knocks" quite a bit harder after noticing broken door while it appears female cop, i believe, places pressure at bottom of door with her foot. Then cop3 acts surprised that his knocking broke the door down. Don't know that you can prove they broke it down, even though we all know that's exactly what they did.
Click to expand...
Pretty sure a jury would see the same thing we did when they play that video.

Nobody is going to buy his "just knocking" line unless they were determined to ignore reality to protect him ahead of time.
 
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GOPerfect said:
No law against lying to the Police. As long as false information about ones self is given, extra charges are not there.

Cop asks, "were you there"

Bad guy, "nope"

If it was found out the bad guy was there, no additional charge for the lie.
Click to expand...
There are a lot of things that aren't often charged, but still could be.

Cops will lie illegally on reports and testimony and getting charged for that is extremely rare.
 
GOPerfect

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spat said:
I should have been more specific.

Even when caught, with incontrovertible proof, they aren't often charged.

There is an unethical incestuous relationship between cops and prosecutors.
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There are times things need to work this way in order to put bad guys where they belong.

Just like jailhouse rules needs to come into play.

I am happy that I was able to do many of things that I was able to do. (And, get away with it)
 
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GOPerfect said:
There are times things need to work this way in order to put bad guys where they belong.

Just like jailhouse rules needs to come into play.

I am happy that I was able to do many of things that I was able to do. (And, get away with it)
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That's very dangerous mojo. At a certain point it gets hard to tell the bad guys from the good guys.

What do you think the difference is ?
 
GOPerfect

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spat said:
That's very dangerous mojo. At a certain point it gets hard to tell the bad guys from the good guys.

What do you think the difference is ?
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That is easy, at least for me.

When I was doing this, that or the other thing, I always knew that I was the good guy, and the other party was the bad guy.

For others, I have no idea; I can only speak for myself.
 
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GOPerfect said:
That is easy, at least for me.

When I was doing this, that or the other thing, I always knew that I was the good guy, and the other party was the bad guy.

For others, I have no idea; I can only speak for myself.
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*How* do you know you're the good guy ?

Because most of the bad guys think they're the good guy too.

I'm not saying you're not, just saying it's not as easy to tell from the inside.

It's important to know how you tell the difference, because "I just know" is a great way to deceive yourself. If you don't have clear objective criteria, you can easily be led to the wrong side of that line.

History is replete with people who assisted in atrocities all the while thinking they were the good guys.
 
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