A good guy with a gun.
https://www.google.com/amp/s/fox13n...n-in-salt-lake-county-starbucks-shooting/amp/
https://www.google.com/amp/s/fox13n...n-in-salt-lake-county-starbucks-shooting/amp/
Hmm, I thought no ccw at Starbucks
- Thread starter Jem45472
- Start date
masterswimmer
.450/400 Nitro Ex
The left has always been hypocrites, why would that change now?
No Starbucks never said no carrying on their property.
Their official statement was along the lines, we follow all federal and state laws, but we would like it if people would maybe not open carry when here
Their official statement was along the lines, we follow all federal and state laws, but we would like it if people would maybe not open carry when here
usamerican
.38 Special
Prior to 2003 Starbucks had no position on CCW in cafes. In 2003 their CEO wrote an open letter "asking nicely" that people voluntarily not carry in their cafes:
Our Respectful Request
So this was never an enforced policy and they do not post it.
Secondly, unlike many states (compare to Texas), there's no explicit law in Utah restricting CCW in regular, nonsecure private businesses. The effect of signs or policies against customers is left as a civil matter. In other words, a store could have such a policy, and if they somehow knew you were concealed carrying, they could ban you, but if you are concealed carrying properly, how do they know? Not sure there are any cases on this but if it somehow came out (e.g. a search due to an erroneous shoplifting allegation) then the consequence would seem to be at most being banned from the store, not criminal charges or loss of license.
Our Respectful Request
So this was never an enforced policy and they do not post it.
Secondly, unlike many states (compare to Texas), there's no explicit law in Utah restricting CCW in regular, nonsecure private businesses. The effect of signs or policies against customers is left as a civil matter. In other words, a store could have such a policy, and if they somehow knew you were concealed carrying, they could ban you, but if you are concealed carrying properly, how do they know? Not sure there are any cases on this but if it somehow came out (e.g. a search due to an erroneous shoplifting allegation) then the consequence would seem to be at most being banned from the store, not criminal charges or loss of license.
Saltwater60
20×102mm Vulcan
So the guy just let the criminal beat up the girl and only shot him when he attacked the ccw holder. That’s some shot right there. I’d have protected the girl.
usamerican
.38 Special
Okay hero, here's an alternate timeline. You walk into a Starbucks in New York. Another man enters, runs up to the counter girl, starts hollering at her and punching her in the face. You draw, tell him to get on the ground or you'll shoot. He says "Fuck you, you ain't doing shit!" and continues punching the girl. You fire one clean shot, severing his aorta. He drops and bleeds out in seconds. Counter girl kneels over his lifeless body, weeping and shrieking "Benjy, please don't die on me!"
Cops arrive, counter girl points at you and screams "That's the asshole that murdered my man!" You are cuffed, taken away, and charged with second degree murder.
Still glad you "protected the girl?"
masterswimmer
.450/400 Nitro Ex
I totally agree with this but for one point. I'd have used a Walmart parking lot instead of the Starbucks.
Carlos Hathcock
.450/400 Nitro Ex
So the fact he's beating a woman who knows him vs. a stranger makes it OK? That does not affect the situation for me.
It doesn't matter, known or unknown. Someone using hands on someone else is not a valid scenario to shoot someone. Even cops can only escalate one level. Hands vs baton.
masterswimmer
.450/400 Nitro Ex
Let's add to the scenario some other unknown facts. The woman just physically abused and beat the piss out of the guys (her boyfriend) 3 y/o child, unbeknownst to you of course.
Different Drummer
.44 mag
Many comments here give me pause for thought. Long story I will try to shorten up.
Many years ago while driving on a rural road I see a guy and girl standing outside their car. They are obviously in a heated argument. I see him push / punch her in the upper chest shoulder area. I continue on down the road. After about a mile I think "Oh shit, what if he really does something bad". I turn around and go back to see her running into a field with him in pursuit!. I drive on again, not stopping. Get down the road a ways and again have second thoughts. Thinking that I could read about this in a couple days in the newspaper. So I go back a third time and now she is face down on the ground and he is on top of her with her arms pulled behind her. She is screaming and struggling.
Now I stop and run into the field. Drag the guy off the screaming girl. He tells me is is going to "Kick my ass". That did it for me and I grabbed him pushing him up against a tree. Just as I am about to arrange a meeting of my right fist and his face, the girl who has gotten off the ground jumps right onto my back and begins scratching and clawing at my face. She is screaming " leave him alone asshole". I get her off of me and tell her, " Lady there are two assholes here today and I definitely am not one of them". I left the two of them in the field that day and never looked back.
The memory of that experience has remained with me for many years and definitely plays a role in decisions I make to this day.
I think we all should have a plan or at least some sort of idea what we will or will NOT do when we are armed in public.
Certainly my actions with an intruder inside the confines of my home at 3AM would differ from my actions in a Starbucks witnessing the situation described in this thread. I have looked long and hard at "The Question". I am not the Lone Ranger, Robin Hood, the Enforcer, the Equalizer or pick whatever character you want. There may be some very special circumstances that could get me personally involved. However, that is a decision that will be need to be made at the appropriate time. I do believe for the vast majority of situations that may arise, I will be avoiding getting personally involved. I will remove myself from the area of danger and make the appropriate phone call. Even if I did intervene verbally in the situation that happened in Starbuck's, my first move would not be pulling my weapon.
I am a large person and many decades ago I never shied away from a confrontation and rarely came up holding the shitty end of the stick. But I am not the young buck I used to be. Life and conditions change and IMO play a major role in the decisions and actions we take. A large part of the answer to "the question" needs to be concluded prior to the situation occurring.
Just my rambling random thoughts on the subject.
Many years ago while driving on a rural road I see a guy and girl standing outside their car. They are obviously in a heated argument. I see him push / punch her in the upper chest shoulder area. I continue on down the road. After about a mile I think "Oh shit, what if he really does something bad". I turn around and go back to see her running into a field with him in pursuit!. I drive on again, not stopping. Get down the road a ways and again have second thoughts. Thinking that I could read about this in a couple days in the newspaper. So I go back a third time and now she is face down on the ground and he is on top of her with her arms pulled behind her. She is screaming and struggling.
Now I stop and run into the field. Drag the guy off the screaming girl. He tells me is is going to "Kick my ass". That did it for me and I grabbed him pushing him up against a tree. Just as I am about to arrange a meeting of my right fist and his face, the girl who has gotten off the ground jumps right onto my back and begins scratching and clawing at my face. She is screaming " leave him alone asshole". I get her off of me and tell her, " Lady there are two assholes here today and I definitely am not one of them". I left the two of them in the field that day and never looked back.
The memory of that experience has remained with me for many years and definitely plays a role in decisions I make to this day.
I think we all should have a plan or at least some sort of idea what we will or will NOT do when we are armed in public.
Certainly my actions with an intruder inside the confines of my home at 3AM would differ from my actions in a Starbucks witnessing the situation described in this thread. I have looked long and hard at "The Question". I am not the Lone Ranger, Robin Hood, the Enforcer, the Equalizer or pick whatever character you want. There may be some very special circumstances that could get me personally involved. However, that is a decision that will be need to be made at the appropriate time. I do believe for the vast majority of situations that may arise, I will be avoiding getting personally involved. I will remove myself from the area of danger and make the appropriate phone call. Even if I did intervene verbally in the situation that happened in Starbuck's, my first move would not be pulling my weapon.
I am a large person and many decades ago I never shied away from a confrontation and rarely came up holding the shitty end of the stick. But I am not the young buck I used to be. Life and conditions change and IMO play a major role in the decisions and actions we take. A large part of the answer to "the question" needs to be concluded prior to the situation occurring.
Just my rambling random thoughts on the subject.
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Carlos Hathcock
.450/400 Nitro Ex
I didnt say I was shooting anyone.
Your experience is almost identical to that of a close friend. Except he was arrested and charged with assault. Fortunately for him a witness came forward to corroborate his side of the story
Sadly in this day and age helping others comes with a heavy price.
Marine Cpl
.577 Tyrannosaur.
This is the way I look at things. I'm no cop. My CCW is for me to protect my life and my family and friend's lives only.
I don't have the funds to get a lawyer to protect myself in a court of law. I don't have the funds to post bail if I'm charged criminally. I cannot afford to take time off of work to protect myself in a court of law. I cannot afford to have my gun and carry license confiscated while a court of law sorts things out. These things will still happen even if you are found to be in the right.
People need to take personal responsibility for their own safety. A single woman should have a carry license to protect her own self.
On the flip slide, if you needed the help, no one will help you. About the only thing they would do is call the police. That's about the only thing you should do too and then and only then use your pistol if the assailant comes after you.
I don't have the funds to get a lawyer to protect myself in a court of law. I don't have the funds to post bail if I'm charged criminally. I cannot afford to take time off of work to protect myself in a court of law. I cannot afford to have my gun and carry license confiscated while a court of law sorts things out. These things will still happen even if you are found to be in the right.
People need to take personal responsibility for their own safety. A single woman should have a carry license to protect her own self.
On the flip slide, if you needed the help, no one will help you. About the only thing they would do is call the police. That's about the only thing you should do too and then and only then use your pistol if the assailant comes after you.
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Grayson Martin disagrees.
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Carlos Hathcock
.450/400 Nitro Ex
These types of situations always lead to the single inevitable question, "do I help someone who may be in trouble or walk away"? This is what it all boils down to. Can I live with the knowledge that someone I could've helped was seriously injured or killed? You can apply the help and consequences to virtually any situation from a woman face down in a field or someone drowning in a river. You come upon any situation without knowing the precursors and certainly not knowing the outcome.
Drummers situation could've come to saving that girls life. His didn't. He rethought it multiple times because he was a helper. Some are, some aren't. Keeper is right though, sometimes helping does come with a price.
Drummers situation could've come to saving that girls life. His didn't. He rethought it multiple times because he was a helper. Some are, some aren't. Keeper is right though, sometimes helping does come with a price.
Marine Cpl
.577 Tyrannosaur.
Helping someone by doing something that doesn't have the potential to land you in jail is different than doing something that can.
I would absolutely help someone drowning but wouldn't if it wasn't feasible to do so. IE someone who fell through thin ice or someone who jumped off a bridge.
I would absolutely help someone drowning but wouldn't if it wasn't feasible to do so. IE someone who fell through thin ice or someone who jumped off a bridge.
usamerican
.38 Special
Then if you do get a chance to be a hero getting in someone else's business where you don't know the scenario, enjoy the prison. You can tell the other inmates you shouldn't be there. That should help pass the time.
Cops have limited immunity to get in other people's business and it's their job. You don't have immunity and it's not your job. And cops still get second-guessed and worse all the time, as we see in the news.
There's a difference between helping someone in an altercation with another person versus helping someone who is not. Although, all is not always what it seems in those cases either. Someone drowning in a pond probably really needs help, but someone who is "out of gas" or "broken down" or "needs directions" might have other motives.
Your responsibility is to yourself and your children first and foremost. If you put your life and liberty on the line for a stranger, you had better damn well know what you are doing. Most don't.
Completely different. He was using concrete to bash his skull in, very different than a fist fight.
Carlos Hathcock
.450/400 Nitro Ex
Everything you said is true. No denying. Now replace the "stranger" whose business you dont need to get involved in and replace them with your wife, daughter, son, mother, or someone else whose life and well being have meaning and value to you.
Ah, so you need a confirmed head bash to be a lethal threat. Got it.
Marine Cpl
.577 Tyrannosaur.
That changes everything. Those people are an extension of yourself and those people are the exact reason why you carry.
Carlos Hathcock
.450/400 Nitro Ex
Agreed. So the simple point I'm making is that someone who I care about, who is not in my "bubble of protection" at all times, My 5 foot 98 pound wife is getting her face caved in by some piece of shit for reasons unknown. Do I appreciate the fact that a good samaritan takes it upon himself to stop him from making her face a plastic surgeon's career or do I thank him for not "getting involved". I'm not saying he kill the scumbag, but if said scumbag decides he wants a piece of the good samaritan, then what? Anyone get what I'm saying here?
Marine Cpl
.577 Tyrannosaur.
Of course you would appreciate it. But you also have to ask yourself if your wife should depend on a stranger to protect her. More won't than will. Especially if a gun is involved.
Carlos Hathcock
.450/400 Nitro Ex
Never mind. I'm done with this.
I like guns. I like to talk about guns. I am a gun nerd in fact. I even am blessed enough to have some really neat guns. I remember that brief period when we mostly talked about guns here.
And toasters. It was also fun to talk about toasters, our best thread in my opinion.
And toasters. It was also fun to talk about toasters, our best thread in my opinion.
Standard Darth argument.
Quite correct. An argument not refuted, but talked about.