Israel: 'State of war' declared after thousands of rockets fired from Gaza Strip

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POLITICS

Obama acknowledges civilian deaths caused by drone strikes​

APRIL 1, 2016 / 8:11 PM EDT / CBS/AP
President Obama on Friday acknowledged the "legitimate criticism" of U.S. drone strikes in the Middle East that have caused civilian deaths. At the same time, he said the U.S. has now "constructed a fairly rigid and vigorous set of criteria" to justify continued drone strikes that kill whole groups of people at once.
The U.S. came under heavy criticism for a drone strike several years ago against extremists in Yemen, which critics said actually hit a wedding party and killed women and children.
www.cbsnews.com

Obama acknowledges civilian deaths caused by drone strikes

The president said there's been "legitimate criticism" of drone strikes in the past, but he justified the current use of strikes to kill groups of people
www.cbsnews.com www.cbsnews.com

Is Obama a war criminal?
 
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holdover

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spat said:
You're absolutely wrong about that.

Civilians getting killed is part and parcel of war. There is no prohibition on killing civilians in even the most milquetoast version of the "rules".

What is prohibited is intentionally *targetting* civilians who are not associated with a legitimate military objective.

Every factory we bombed in WWII was almost exclusively staffed by civilians. They were all legitimate targets. If the factory is producing war materiel, it doesn't matter if they're running it on child labor, it's a legitimate target.

You would probably be hard pressed to find a building in Gaza that Hamas *isn't* using for something, or a person who isn't working for them.

Gaza should get the Dresden and Tokyo treatment. And that's only because the Heroshima and Nagasaki treatment carries too much political baggage for Isreal.

The only real fault the Isrealis have here is an unwillingness to do what needs to be done to secure real victory. That's the same problem we've had in every war since WWII.

You cannot fight like we did in Vietnam and win. To win a real war you need to unleash the full power of your military, and tell the diplomats and politicians to sit the fuck down and shut up till you're done.
Click to expand...

According to you, Hamas is justified in attacking civilians

""You would probably be hard pressed to find a building in Gaza that Hamas *isn't* using for something, or a person who isn't working for them.""

So all Israel has to do is say ""tunnel"" .

""What is prohibited is intentionally *targetting* civilians who are not associated with a legitimate military objective.""

Nice, So if you hit a refugee camp and kill 500 people, all you need to say is that there was a hamas leader there, but of course hes blown to bits so no proving it .

Thats just great. so genocide is a legal thing now? so long as theres some bad guys there , were justified to annihilate all life. Thats some sick shit man.

according to you Iran is justified to kill every Isreali if they go to war with Hamas because:

""The only real fault the ""Iranians"" have here is an unwillingness to do what needs to be done to secure real victory.""

""You would probably be hard pressed to find a building in Tel Aviv that the IDF*isn't* using for something, or a person who isn't working for them.""

or how about :

We had intell that.....
We bombed that hospital because , HQ
We bombed that school , because of tunnels
We bombed that structure because of leader.


nice . We can kill anyone We want when we want, They cant do the same back . How realistic is that?
 
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holdover said:
After teaching these kids that capitalism is evil and how We genocided the Indians and en slaved the blacks and how true socialism is the way to go , why white people are evil Now your going to try to recruit them into an ""army"" of females , homos, and trannys to fight for capitalism and our country and a corrupt president.

Well good luck with all that. I think I would go on welfare before joining todays army.

The only nice thing is if it comes to a draft, Cheerleaders are going to be drafted too. Im going to relish that.

For 50 years they have been saying We are equal, Well nows your chance to shine sweetheart, show us what your made out of .
Click to expand...
No, This is to enlist illegal aliens.
 
spat

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holdover said:
What are you drinking?


  1. For the purpose of this Statute, ‘crime against humanity’ means any of the following acts when committed as part of a widespread or systematic attack directed against any civilian population, with knowledge of the attack:
    1. Murder;
    2. Extermination;
    3. Enslavement;
    4. Deportation or forcible transfer of population;
    5. Imprisonment or other severe deprivation of physical liberty in violation of fundamental rules of international law;
    6. Torture;
    7. Rape, sexual slavery, enforced prostitution, forced pregnancy, enforced sterilization, or any other form of sexual violence of comparable gravity;
    8. Persecution against any identifiable group or collectivity on political, racial, national, ethnic, cultural, religious, gender as defined in paragraph 3, or other grounds that are universally recognized as impermissible under international law, in connection with any act referred to in this paragraph or any crime within the jurisdiction of the Court;
    9. Enforced disappearance of persons;
    10. The crime of apartheid;
    11. Other inhumane acts of a similar character intentionally causing great suffering, or serious injury to body or to mental or physical health.
  2. For the purpose of paragraph 1:
    1. ‘Attack directed against any civilian population’ means a course of conduct involving the multiple commission of acts referred to in paragraph 1 against any civilian population, pursuant to or in furtherance of a State or organizational policy to commit such attack;

Elements of the crime​

According to Article 7 (1) of the Rome Statute, crimes against humanity do not need to be linked to an armed conflict and can also occur in peacetime, similar to the crime of genocide. That same Article provides a definition of the crime that contains the following main elements:

  1. A physical element, which includes the commission of “any of the following acts”:
    1. Murder;
    2. Extermination;
    3. Enslavement;
    4. Deportation or forcible transfer of population;
    5. Imprisonment;
    6. Torture;
    7. Grave forms of sexual violence;
    8. Persecution;
    9. Enforced disappearance of persons;
    10. The crime of apartheid;
    11. Other inhumane acts

United Nations Office on Genocide Prevention and the Responsibility to Protect

Genocide Prevention and the Responsibility to Protect
www.un.org
  1. Other serious violations of the laws and customs applicable in international armed conflict, within the established framework of international law, namely, any of the following acts:
    1. Intentionally directing attacks against the civilian population as such or against individual civilians not taking direct part in hostilities;
    2. Intentionally directing attacks against civilian objects, that is, objects which are not military objectives;
    3. Intentionally directing attacks against personnel, installations, material, units or vehicles involved in a humanitarian assistance or peacekeeping mission in accordance with the Charter of the United Nations, as long as they are entitled to the protection given to civilians or civilian objects under the international law of armed conflict;
    4. Intentionally launching an attack in the knowledge that such attack will cause incidental loss of life or injury to civilians or damage to civilian objects or widespread, long-term and severe damage to the natural environment which would be clearly excessive in relation to the concrete and direct overall military advantage anticipated;
    5. Attacking or bombarding, by whatever means, towns, villages, dwellings or buildings which are undefended and which are not military objectives;
    6. Killing or wounding a combatant who, having laid down his arms or having no longer means of defence, has surrendered at discretion;
    7. Making improper use of a flag of truce, of the flag or of the military insignia and uniform of the enemy or of the United Nations, as well as of the distinctive emblems of the Geneva Conventions, resulting in death or serious personal injury;
    8. The transfer, directly or indirectly, by the Occupying Power of parts of its own civilian population into the territory it occupies, or the deportation or transfer of all or parts of the population of the occupied territory within or outside this territory;
    9. Intentionally directing attacks against buildings dedicated to religion, education, art, science or charitable purposes, historic monuments, hospitals and places where the sick and wounded are collected, provided they are not military objectives;
    10. Subjecting persons who are in the power of an adverse party to physical mutilation or to medical or scientific experiments of any kind which are neither justified by the medical, dental or hospital treatment of the person concerned nor carried out in his or her interest, and which cause death to or seriously endanger the health of such person or persons;
    11. Killing or wounding treacherously individuals belonging to the hostile nation or army;
    12. Declaring that no quarter will be given;
    13. Destroying or seizing the enemy's property unless such destruction or seizure be imperatively demanded by the necessities of war;
    14. Declaring abolished, suspended or inadmissible in a court of law the rights and actions of the nationals of the hostile party;
    15. Compelling the nationals of the hostile party to take part in the operations of war directed against their own country, even if they were in the belligerent's service before the commencement of the war;
    16. Pillaging a town or place, even when taken by assault;
    17. Employing poison or poisoned weapons;
    18. Employing asphyxiating, poisonous or other gases, and all analogous liquids, materials or devices;
    19. Employing bullets which expand or flatten easily in the human body, such as bullets with a hard envelope which does not entirely cover the core or is pierced with incisions;
    20. Employing weapons, projectiles and material and methods of warfare which are of a nature to cause superfluous injury or unnecessary suffering or which are inherently indiscriminate in violation of the international law of armed conflict, provided that such weapons, projectiles and material and methods of warfare are the subject of a comprehensive prohibition and are included in an annex to this Statute, by an amendment in accordance with the relevant provisions set forth in articles 121 and 123;
    21. Committing outrages upon personal dignity, in particular humiliating and degrading treatment;
    22. Committing rape, sexual slavery, enforced prostitution, forced pregnancy, as defined in article 7, paragraph 2 (f), enforced sterilization, or any other form of sexual violence also constituting a grave breach of the Geneva Conventions;
    23. Utilizing the presence of a civilian or other protected person to render certain points, areas or military forces immune from military operations;
    24. Intentionally directing attacks against buildings, material, medical units and transport, and personnel using the distinctive emblems of the Geneva Conventions in conformity with international law;
    25. Intentionally using starvation of civilians as a method of warfare by depriving them of objects indispensable to their survival, including wilfully impeding relief supplies as provided for under the Geneva Conventions;
    26. Conscripting or enlisting children under the age of fifteen years into the national armed forces or using them to participate actively in hostilities.
  2. In the case of an armed conflict not of an international character, serious violations of article 3 common to the four Geneva Conventions of 12 August 1949, namely, any of the following acts committed against persons taking no active part in the hostilities, including members of armed forces who have laid down their arms and those placed hors de combat by sickness, wounds, detention or any other cause:
    1. Violence to life and person, in particular murder of all kinds, mutilation, cruel treatment and torture;
    2. Committing outrages upon personal dignity, in particular humiliating and degrading treatment;
    3. Taking of hostages;
    4. The passing of sentences and the carrying out of executions without previous judgement pronounced by a regularly constituted court, affording all judicial guarantees which are generally recognized as indispensable.
  3. Paragraph 2 (c) applies to armed conflicts not of an international character and thus does not apply to situations of internal disturbances and tensions, such as riots, isolated and sporadic acts of violence or other acts of a similar nature.
  4. Other serious violations of the laws and customs applicable in armed conflicts not of an international character, within the established framework of international law, namely, any of the following acts:
    1. Intentionally directing attacks against the civilian population as such or against individual civilians not taking direct part in hostilities;
    2. Intentionally directing attacks against buildings, material, medical units and transport, and personnel using the distinctive emblems of the Geneva Conventions in conformity with international law;
    3. Intentionally directing attacks against personnel, installations, material, units or vehicles involved in a humanitarian assistance or peacekeeping mission in accordance with the Charter of the United Nations, as long as they are entitled to the protection given to civilians or civilian objects under the international law of armed conflict;
    4. Intentionally directing attacks against buildings dedicated to religion, education, art, science or charitable purposes, historic monuments, hospitals and places where the sick and wounded are collected, provided they are not military objectives;
    5. Pillaging a town or place, even when taken by assault;
    6. Committing rape, sexual slavery, enforced prostitution, forced pregnancy, as defined in article 7, paragraph 2 (f), enforced sterilization, and any other form of sexual violence also constituting a serious violation of article 3 common to the four Geneva Conventions;
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From the first sentence "Directed against the civilian population"

That explicitly exempts any attack that is directed against a legitimate military target and the civilians are merely collateral damage.

If it weren't for that, the statute would be meaningless since *every* participant in *every* major conflict kills civilians. It's unavoidable.

The entire point is that military attacks must have a military goal, and not merely to terrorize civilians or to overwhelm infrastructure with refugees.

But, as long as the attack *has* a legitimate military purpose, it's assume that some may terrorize nearby civilians, and may cause refugees.

Your interpretation (that any killing of civilians is a violation) would make impossible to fight a war without violating it.
 
spat

spat

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holdover said:
According to you, Hamas is justified in attacking civilians

""You would probably be hard pressed to find a building in Gaza that Hamas *isn't* using for something, or a person who isn't working for them.""

So all Israel has to do is say ""tunnel"" .

""What is prohibited is intentionally *targetting* civilians who are not associated with a legitimate military objective.""

Nice, So if you hit a refugee camp and kill 500 people, all you need to say is that there was a hamas leader there, but of course hes blown to bits so no proving it .

Thats just great. so genocide is a legal thing now? so long as theres some bad guys there , were justified to annihilate all life. Thats some sick shit man.

according to you Iran is justified to kill every Isreali if they go to war with Hamas because:

""The only real fault the ""Iranians"" have here is an unwillingness to do what needs to be done to secure real victory.""

""You would probably be hard pressed to find a building in Tel Aviv that the IDF*isn't* using for something, or a person who isn't working for them.""

or how about :

We had intell that.....
We bombed that hospital because , HQ
We bombed that school , because of tunnels
We bombed that structure because of leader.


nice . We can kill anyone We want when we want, They cant do the same back . How realistic is that?
Click to expand...
Nobody is justified in attacking civilians.

They *are* justified in attacking military targets, whether there are civilians around or not.

Are you alleging that there were legitimate military targets at the music festival ?

In the kindergarten at the kibbutz?

Those are war crimes.

Going out of your way to kill civilians is a crime.

Some dying when you strike a legitimate target is not.

And, yes, if you launch missiles from the roof of a hospital, it becomes a legitimate target.

In fact, it isn't a war crime to strike the launch pad, but it *was* a war crime to put the missiles there to begin with.

Decent combatants go out of their way to *not* station military targets in the midst of civilians for that very reason.

Your logic would prevent Isreal from doing anything about a missile launcher as long as Hamas grabs a couple people off the street and chains them to the launcher.

As far as "take their word for it" about whether there were military assets at the camp, this is a fucking war, how do you think it's going to go ? You capture all the enemy combatants without harming them and give them a fair trial ?

If Hamas wants to allege there were none, they can make that case to the press. Isreal claims most of the Oct7th targets were pure civilian. Hamas doesn't even deny that. That is what those a war crime.
 
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H

holdover

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JaguarJaguarGolf said:
No, This is to enlist illegal aliens.
Click to expand...

spat said:
From the first sentence "Directed against the civilian population"
Click to expand...
spat said:
From the first sentence "Directed against the civilian population"

That explicitly exempts any attack that is directed against a legitimate military target and the civilians are merely collateral damage.
Click to expand...

Anything can be justified. who's to say ?

refugee camp bombed 500 dead, Israel claims 1 bad guy there. no proof. and its not a crime because they say so .

Say one hospital is bombed, claim there are tunnels or storage under it. 100 civilians killed. not a crime because they say so.

Thats the problem .
 
Drinkthekoolaid

Drinkthekoolaid

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holdover said:
Anything can be justified. who's to say ?

refugee camp bombed 500 dead, Israel claims 1 bad guy there. no proof. and its not a crime because they say so .

Say one hospital is bombed, claim there are tunnels or storage under it. 100 civilians killed. not a crime because they say so.

Thats the problem .
Click to expand...


We can all agree that the winner writes the rules and holds the trials.

Right or wrong, in war might makes right.

If the axis won WW2, Nuremberg doesn't happen and instead our leaders and generals and pilots are out on trial for firebombing Dresden etc.

The US is one of the few exceptions to the rule where if our military members break the UCMJ we still (in most cases) hold them accountable.

War is gross and messy.
 
spat

spat

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holdover said:
Anything can be justified. who's to say ?

refugee camp bombed 500 dead, Israel claims 1 bad guy there. no proof. and its not a crime because they say so .

Say one hospital is bombed, claim there are tunnels or storage under it. 100 civilians killed. not a crime because they say so.

Thats the problem .
Click to expand...
No, that is war.

This isn't a police hostage situation. It's a fucking war. There is no presumption of innocence here.

What part of that don't you understand ?

If you want to make a case that there *weren't* any legitimate targets at the hospital or camp, you are free to do so.

But, if Isreal claims there were, they probably at least believed there were. That belief is all that's necessary.

And honestly, knowing what we do about Hamas, do you really think they *didn't* have any legitimate targets there ?
 
H

holdover

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spat said:
No, that is war.

This isn't a police hostage situation. It's a fucking war. There is no presumption of innocence here.

What part of that don't you understand ?

If you want to make a case that there *weren't* any legitimate targets at the hospital or camp, you are free to do so.

But, if Isreal claims there were, they probably at least believed there were. That belief is all that's necessary.

And honestly, knowing what we do about Hamas, do you really think they *didn't* have any legitimate targets there ?
Click to expand...

You dont understand, Your justifying the Mideast annihilation of Israel in the event of a war. Your setting rules that will genocide Israel. these rules or lack of rules will come back and bite you in the ass. this is a double edge sword .
 
H

holdover

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the rules on the battlefield is if you give give no quarter, you get no quarter. You kill pow's then they will pows. OOOOOOOOOORRRRRR you can choose not to unless they do first.
 
spat

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holdover said:
You dont understand, Your justifying the Mideast annihilation of Israel in the event of a war. Your setting rules that will genocide Israel. these rules or lack of rules will come back and bite you in the ass. this is a double edge sword .
Click to expand...
I am not *designing* these rules. I am simply explaining what they are.

Also, Isreal goes out of their way to segregate their military assets from their civilians. The exact opposite of what Hamas does.

Also, Hamas isn't even attempting to claim there was some secret military use of the festival or the Kibbutzes. They straight up came out and said they were intentionally targetting civilians *because* there were no military to defend them.

If the Arab world tries to wipe out Isreal (again) they aren't going to claim they had legitimate military reasons for doing so. They are going to *explicitly* claim religious reasons.

So, it doesn't matter what those rules justify or not. Iran and their minions don't even claim to attempt to follow them.
 
H

holdover

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spat said:
And honestly, knowing what we do about Hamas, do you really think they *didn't* have any legitimate targets there ?
Click to expand...
Well, both sides will lie . You can see that in the Ukraine Russia war . Personally , I doubt it. not because I believe Hamas. Because Isreal is fucking enraged , and they are kicking them in the balls and saying How did that feel? How do you like it.? I cant say a Hamas leader wasnt there, but what was he doing in a refugee camp during an all out attack? I have my doubts .
 
spat

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holdover said:
Well, both sides will lie . You can see that in the Ukraine Russia war . Personally , I doubt it. not because I believe Hamas. Because Isreal is fucking enraged , and they are kicking them in the balls and saying How did that feel? How do you like it.? I cant say a Hamas leader wasnt there, but what was he doing in a refugee camp during an all out attack? I have my doubts .
Click to expand...
He's a Hamas leader. He's attempting to use the refugees as human shields.

That's kinda their thing. Like "why does a dog lick his balls".

It's about time Isreal stopped letting them get away with it.
 
spat

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holdover said:
Thats correct. but at what point do you call it even? kill all 2 million?
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You kill every Hamas operative, and whatever civilians they happen to be hiding behind.

If that's all 2 million, then so be it at this point.

Ask the residents of Tokyo how that goes.

100k in one raid. *Not* a war crime.

en.m.wikipedia.org

Bombing of Tokyo - Wikipedia

en.m.wikipedia.org en.m.wikipedia.org
 
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