Two Colorado paramedics convicted in the McCain case

[Saltwater60]

I’m not sure how I feel about this one. They followed protocol per the article and it would be tough to estimate the weight. However if they weren’t sure they should have waited. Also not monitoring him for six minutes after is problematic to me and I get he was still in police custody.

Paramedics convicted in connection with Elijah McClain's death — ABC News

Elijah McClain was injected with 500 milligrams of ketamine by the paramedics.

apple.news

 

[spat]

I’m not sure how I feel about this one. They followed protocol per the article and it would be tough to estimate the weight. However if they weren’t sure they should have waited. Also not monitoring him for six minutes after is problematic to me and I get he was still in police custody.

Paramedics convicted in connection with Elijah McClain's death — ABC News

Elijah McClain was injected with 500 milligrams of ketamine by the paramedics.

apple.news

Giving someone a medical treatment against their will should always be No Bueno.

Regardless of what the cops say.

 

[kev74]

I don't remember ever hearing about paramedics tranquilizing people at police request before.

 

[TEOTWAWKI inc.]

Ketamine is for sub-human primates. Animal control should administer it, not EMT's.

 

[FP1201]

Giving someone a medical treatment against their will should always be No Bueno.

Regardless of what the cops say.

There ARE plenty of situations where EMS should take a position of personal safety over the patient...We have no duty to act, but an obligation to once contact is made, and if you demand to be left alone/decline treatment, then have a nice day!

 

[Saltwater60]

There ARE plenty of situations where EMS should take a position of personal safety over the patient...We have no duty to act, but an obligation to once contact is made, and if you demand to be left alone/decline treatment, then have a nice day!

The issue with this case is that the police were trying to take him into custody and they claimed him to be a danger to himself. As a result of the cops assessment medics were called to sedate him so he didn’t injure himself or the cops. They were said to have followed procedure so that’s why I posted it here. Also this was the first time I heard of medics being charged like this.

 

[spat]

The issue with this case is that the police were trying to take him into custody and they claimed him to be a danger to himself. As a result of the cops assessment medics were called to sedate him so he didn’t injure himself or the cops. They were said to have followed procedure so that’s why I posted it here. Also this was the first time I heard of medics being charged like this.

If that was following procedure, then whoever wrote the procedure should be charged as an accessory.

That was a medical diagnosis that cops have no business making.

 

[Saltwater60]

If that was following procedure, then whoever wrote the procedure should be charged as an accessory.

That was a medical diagnosis that cops have no business making.

No offense to paramedics but they do y have much training either. The issue was they couldn’t properly tell weight because a couple of cops were sitting on him. I’m sure there was some negligence on their part.

 

[spat]

No offense to paramedics but they do y have much training either. The issue was they couldn’t properly tell weight because a couple of cops were sitting on him. I’m sure there was some negligence on their part.

Well, I'd say the issue was that they attempted to administer medical treatment to someone against their will.

Getting the dose right would not have fixed that.

Their training should start with "no means no", and they should understand that consent means the same thing it does for sex.

 

[Acer-m14]

Question ..

why was ketamine even in their possession to give to begin with .. ???

does EMS paramedics Carry Lidocaine ( AKA Novocaine )

to respond to a tooth ache .. ??

if they do i have one hell of a tooth ache

 

[Acer-m14]

she got a payday at the end of this BS .. they had a policy .. lol and it bit them in the ass ..

 

[Dr. Evil]

she got a payday at the end of this BS .. they had a policy .. lol and it bit them in the ass ..

That bald clown is a real tough guy I see.

 

[Saltwater60]

Well, I'd say the issue was that they attempted to administer medical treatment to someone against their will.

Getting the dose right would not have fixed that.

Their training should start with "no means no", and they should understand that consent means the same thing it does for sex.

But people get medical treatment against their will all the time. Mentally ill people in particular. At the time of administering the medication the cops essentially made the call that this person was in a state of psychosis so they administered the medication in an attempt to prevent injury to the cops and the person in custody. I’m not saying it’s right or wrong I’m just saying that’s what the article stated and why it was said the medics followed protocol.
In this case the kid did nothing wrong other than someone called and said he looked suspicious. If that’s the case make contact and make a determination. I agree this situation should not have caused the kids death. Maybe he was a scum bag but maybe he was a saint, no one knew anything at this point. I’m not sure I’d want or let a cop take me into custody for walking down a street minding my own business like he was. I don’t have a major issue with the cops being disciplined or even some charges brought against them. My hold up on the medics is they followed protocol and if so should they be charged and convicted? I’m not sure I would convict them if I was on the jury for that. Stupid and civilly liable very likely.

 

[Saltwater60]

Question ..

why was ketamine even in their possession to give to begin with .. ???

does EMS paramedics Carry Lidocaine ( AKA Novocaine )

to respond to a tooth ache .. ??

if they do i have one hell of a tooth ache

They had this because this was the protocol used to subdue an unruly suspect when the cops and medics when they determined they were is a state where the subject could injure their self or the cops. I’m not saying it’s right but the article says they follow protocol but misjudged his weight because a couple of cops were on top of him to subdue him. It’s pretty hard to judge weight so maybe they should have erred on the side of caution. I suspect they gave him on the high end to end this quickly but that’s just a guess.

 

[OwnTheRide]

Way too much "for officer safety" thinking going on here. As usual, spat is spot-on.

There are processes and procedures for administering medical treatment to someone against their will: warrants for blood draws, involuntary commitment procedures, etc. Not "cop is scared and decides he is a doctor," not "EMS is following cop's orders."

We cannot accept any wiggle room here.

 

[Zerex]

Mathew Perry died of ketamine use.

FBI used to use it frequently..........on MAGA. Links now taken down.

 

[spat]

But people get medical treatment against their will all the time. Mentally ill people in particular. At the time of administering the medication the cops essentially made the call that this person was in a state of psychosis so they administered the medication in an attempt to prevent injury to the cops and the person in custody. I’m not saying it’s right or wrong I’m just saying that’s what the article stated and why it was said the medics followed protocol.
In this case the kid did nothing wrong other than someone called and said he looked suspicious. If that’s the case make contact and make a determination. I agree this situation should not have caused the kids death. Maybe he was a scum bag but maybe he was a saint, no one knew anything at this point. I’m not sure I’d want or let a cop take me into custody for walking down a street minding my own business like he was. I don’t have a major issue with the cops being disciplined or even some charges brought against them. My hold up on the medics is they followed protocol and if so should they be charged and convicted? I’m not sure I would convict them if I was on the jury for that. Stupid and civilly liable very likely.

Neither cops, nor paramedics are legally qualified to make that medical diagnosis and they should absolutely know that.

Treatment without consent should only be only valid in 2 cases. A person who is incapacitated and the medical professional has a reasonable expectation that they *would* consent if they were able, or treatment after a person has been declared legally incompetent by a jury.

"Followed protocol" or "policy" is not a get out of jail free card for committing a crime. It just means the crime has been elevated to a conspiracy and the people responsible for the policy are *also* guilty.

Anything else is guaranteed to be badly abused. Your comment that it "happens all the time" is evidence of that.

 

[TEOTWAWKI inc.]

A cop, or some such, says I am mentally ill or in need of medical treatment.

I counter with I am NOT mentally ill or NOT in need of medical treatment.

Why, by default, are they correct? Because we are slaves.

 

[pjzwtl]

Ketamine is actually a great resource in this case there was a lot of fail wrong dose proper monitoring and it appears the individual was no longer a threat to himself or others. He was cuffed if I’m not mistaken

 

[Acer-m14]

Ketamine is actually a great resource in this case there was a lot of fail wrong dose proper monitoring and it appears the individual was no longer a treat to himself or others. He was cuffed if I’m not mistaken

Morphine would have worked too ..

it made me go lights outs really Fast when i hit the ER burn unit ..

it was sent right down the IV line ..

 

[pjzwtl]

Morphine would have worked too ..

it made me go lights outs really Fast when i hit the ER burn unit ..

it was sent right down the IV line ..

MS wouldn’t be a good choice for someone truly off their rocker (sort of speak). Midazolam would be a second choice and or Haldol

 

[Acer-m14]

or a Pb pill ...

 

[Saltwater60]

Neither cops, nor paramedics are legally qualified to make that medical diagnosis and they should absolutely know that.

Treatment without consent should only be only valid in 2 cases. A person who is incapacitated and the medical professional has a reasonable expectation that they *would* consent if they were able, or treatment after a person has been declared legally incompetent by a jury.

"Followed protocol" or "policy" is not a get out of jail free card for committing a crime. It just means the crime has been elevated to a conspiracy and the people responsible for the policy are *also* guilty.

Anything else is guaranteed to be badly abused. Your comment that it "happens all the time" is evidence of that.

This I agree with 100%. The problem is and why I posed this thread and question is the authorities went beyond that and now it backfired so they are blaming the cops and medics. Is that right for the medics to take the fall?
So I agree the authorities meaning the state or city went above and beyond their powers and now those below them tasked with making tough choices take the hit and fall. People need to wake up and defy these orders and fight back.

 

[Saltwater60]

Ketamine is actually a great resource in this case there was a lot of fail wrong dose proper monitoring and it appears the individual was no longer a threat to himself or others. He was cuffed if I’m not mistaken

From reading the article he was never a threat to anyone. The issue is the cops have a duty to respond to situations like this. Some Karen saw a black man walking down the street where they normally wouldn’t be or he did something odd so the cops showed up. Great show up but show up and ask him a few questions and if you can’t determine he committed a crime say good bye and take his picture or something. This BS aid I need your ID and let me cuff you while we investigate is taking someone’s rights away for no reason.

 

[pjzwtl]

From reading the article he was never a threat to anyone. The issue is the cops have a duty to respond to situations like this. Some Karen saw a black man walking down the street where they normally wouldn’t be or he did something odd so the cops showed up. Great show up but show up and ask him a few questions and if you can’t determine he committed a crime say good bye and take his picture or something. This BS aid I need your ID and let me cuff you while we investigate is taking someone’s rights away for no reason.

I for one don’t put to much stock in the content of any article and to be honest why the cops were there is irrelevant to what the medics did. All that is relevant is he wasn’t a threat to himself or others at the time the Ketamine was administered, the dose was incorrect and he’s wasn’t properly monitored and left I believe face down. Why the cops were dealing with him was a cop issue and why the medics took direction from them is beyond me.

 

[pjzwtl]

No offense to paramedics but they do y have much training either. The issue was they couldn’t properly tell weight because a couple of cops were sitting on him. I’m sure there was some negligence on their part.

And no offense taken but you are seriously off regarding training. This is an isolated case by weak minded tool bags who allowed themselves to be bullied and I honestly do not feel for them.

 

[Saltwater60]

And no offense taken but you are seriously off regarding training. This is an isolated case by weak minded tool bags who allowed themselves to be bullied and I honestly do not feel for them.

I simply meant they are no where near the level of doctors in the ER in training.

 

[spat]

This I agree with 100%. The problem is and why I posed this thread and question is the authorities went beyond that and now it backfired so they are blaming the cops and medics. Is that right for the medics to take the fall?
So I agree the authorities meaning the state or city went above and beyond their powers and now those below them tasked with making tough choices take the hit and fall. People need to wake up and defy these orders and fight back.

The cops and medics should have known better.

In fact, they have an affirmative duty to know better.

But, whomever wrote the policies should *also* be charged.

Just because 5 guys gang up to commit a murder doesn't mean each is any less responsible for it than if they'd done it alone. It's not a zero sum game. *all* of them are 100% responsible.

It really comes down to this, the cops and medics are 100% at fault. No question about that.

*Were* they following policy, or were they just misinterpreting it ? That's a question for a jury. If they were, then maybe that's a mitigating factor for them at sentencing, but it doesn't change their guilt one iota.

If they were following policy, then anyone who signed off on that policy is *also* guilty.

Moral of the story, don't sign off on stuff unless you are willing to risk your freedom on it being legal.

If they *weren't* following policy, but they thought they were, then we need to look at their training. With that many people getting it wrong the training was obviously inadequate. Possibly criminally inadequate.

 

[Acer-m14]

The issue is the cops have a duty to respond to situations like this. Some Karen saw a black man walking down the street where they normally wouldn’t be or he did something odd so the cops showed up.

So show up and park your car and watch the guy .. no need to even get out of the damn car ..

you have no right to know anything abut the guy walking down the sidewalk ...

where he came from , where he is going .. why he is walking .. ect ..