Honest Question About Revolvers

[Marine Cpl]

It reality I think most calibers 9mm and above perform about the same. I just like to mess with Will.

No messing. I'm on a train going to work. Keep it coming. I enjoy it.

 

[Darth]

9? No. 40? No. 45? No. 357? No. 10? No.

What you need is:

 

[ECU Pirates]

Let me ask you this. What will kill you? A .38 Special FMJ that will reach vitals or a .357 Magnum with a poorly designed HP bullet that expands explosively with tons of hydrostatic shock but doesn't penetrate enough?

That was the issue in the Miami shooting. The 9mm Winchester Silvertips expanded explosively into the gunman but stopped short of vitals. According to the hydrostatic shock myth, that should have put an end to him.

One should not be overly impressed by the propensity for shallow penetrating loads to produce larger pressure waves. Selection criteria should first determine the required penetration depth for the given risk assessment and application, and only use pressure wave magnitude as a selection criterion for loads meeting minimum penetration requirements. Reliable expansion, penetration, feeding, and functioning are all important aspects of load testing and selection. We do not advocate abandoning long-held aspects of the load testing and selection process, but it seems prudent to consider the pressure wave magnitude along with other factors.

— Courtney and Courtney

 

[Marine Cpl]

When that guy took down the Grizzly Bear in Alaska, he did so with a hardcast 9mm that reached vitals. Some rounds had a complete passthrough while others were recovered close to the back of the animal. Had he been packing a .357 Magnum, .44 Magnum, or 10mm all loaded with Hollow Points that transfer energy (Hydrostatic Shock) but do no penetrate 20 plus inches, he'd be a dead man.

 

[Harry Hood]

As do most semi autos. No? The trigger has to be pulled.

Yes, unless it is a Taurus semi auto, then all you have to do is drop or slam the slide shut for them to go off.

 

[MilesTeg]

Let me ask you this. What will kill you? A .38 Special FMJ that will reach vitals or a .357 Magnum with a poorly designed HP bullet that expands explosively with tons of hydrostatic shock but doesn't penetrate enough?

That was the issue in the Miami shooting. The 9mm Winchester Silvertips expanded explosively into the gunman but stopped short of vitals. According to the hydrostatic shock myth, that should have put an end to him.

Fine I'll jump back into this argument. If I'm in a gun fight my goal isn't to kill the attacker. It is to get the hell out of the gun fight. So if I can incapacitate him enough not to be a threat and get to safety I win. Killing the bad guy is only an added bonus. I can tell you from me years of hunting there is a shock value to hitting game. You can have a mortal wound and the animal go for quiet a while.

I have numerous examples of this with game, but the one that stands out to me is taking deer with 20ga vs 12ga. Both guns using a lead slug non hollow point, with good shots. More times than not a deer shot with a 12ga would drop in its spot or within 20yds. With the 20ga I have tracked deer a 1/4 mile with boiler room shots. The diameter difference of the round is negligible in regards to lethality. The weight and speed are different. So what is causing such a vast difference in reactions? My opinion is hydrostatic shock. This isn't causing any more lethality, but rather creating a neurological response to take the animal out. There is almost no way to validate this, it's purely a biological response and also a personal response to the incident.

I have no problem with people carrying/using what ever ammo they want, but I can tell you I will use modern hollow points. Hopefully this will give me an edge to surviving a fight.

 

[ECU Pirates]

When that guy took down the Grizzly Bear in Alaska, he did so with a hardcast 9mm that reached vitals. Some rounds had a complete passthrough while others were recovered close to the back of the animal. Had he been packing a .357 Magnum, .44 Magnum, or 10mm all loaded with Hollow Points that transfer energy (Hydrostatic Shock) but do no penetrate 20 plus inches, he'd be a dead man.

That guy was lucky and irresponsible in my opinion. He said he normally carried a .44 mag. A guide should have a long gun.

 

[Marine Cpl]

One should not be overly impressed by the propensity for shallow penetrating loads to produce larger pressure waves. Selection criteria should first determine the required penetration depth for the given risk assessment and application, and only use pressure wave magnitude as a selection criterion for loads meeting minimum penetration requirements. Reliable expansion, penetration, feeding, and functioning are all important aspects of load testing and selection. We do not advocate abandoning long-held aspects of the load testing and selection process, but it seems prudent to consider the pressure wave magnitude along with other factors.

— Courtney and Courtney

Adequate penetration is the only factor. All other factors are add ons that by themselves do nothing without penetration.

 

[ECU Pirates]

When that guy took down the Grizzly Bear in Alaska, he did so with a hardcast 9mm that reached vitals. Some rounds had a complete passthrough while others were recovered close to the back of the animal. Had he been packing a .357 Magnum, .44 Magnum, or 10mm all loaded with Hollow Points that transfer energy (Hydrostatic Shock) but do no penetrate 20 plus inches, he'd be a dead man.

The correct HP in the correct caliber will penetrate enough and make a bigger wound that bleeds more. If I see a guide in Grizzly country with a 9mm I'm leaving!

 

[Marine Cpl]

That guy was lucky and irresponsible in my opinion. He said he normally carried a .44 mag. A guide should have a long gun.

He'd be more irresponsible if he carried that .44 Magnum loaded with defensive ammo (hollow points) that penetrates between 12 to 18 inches.

 

[Marine Cpl]

The correct HP in the correct caliber will penetrate enough and make a bigger wound that bleeds more. If I see a guide in Grizzly country with a 9mm I'm leaving!

Most hollow points with some exceptions (Hornady XTP's is one) are designed to stop at about 18 inches.

If anyone is carrying for bear protection they should know their ammo. Caliber means nothing is it doesn't reach vitals.

 

[ECU Pirates]

Most hollow points with some exceptions (Hornady XTP's is one) are designed to stop at about 18 inches.

If anyone is carrying for bear protection they should know their ammo. Caliber means nothing is it doesn't reach vitals.

Ever heard of Barnes?

 

[Marine Cpl]

Fine I'll jump back into this argument. If I'm in a gun fight my goal isn't to kill the attacker. It is to get the hell out of the gun fight. So if I can incapacitate him enough not to be a threat and get to safety I win. Killing the bad guy is only an added bonus. I can tell you from me years of hunting there is a shock value to hitting game. You can have a mortal wound and the animal go for quiet a while.

I have numerous examples of this with game, but the one that stands out to me is taking deer with 20ga vs 12ga. Both guns using a lead slug non hollow point, with good shots. More times than not a deer shot with a 12ga would drop in its spot or within 20yds. With the 20ga I have tracked deer a 1/4 mile with boiler room shots. The diameter difference of the round is negligible in regards to lethality. The weight and speed are different. So what is causing such a vast difference in reactions? My opinion is hydrostatic shock. This isn't causing any more lethality, but rather creating a neurological response to take the animal out. There is almost no way to validate this, it's purely a biological response and also a personal response to the incident.

I have no problem with people carrying/using what ever ammo they want, but I can tell you I will use modern hollow points. Hopefully this will give me an edge to surviving a fight.

There are a lot of factors that determine whether an animal will drop on the spot or run.

If you were to shoot that the animal with a 12 gauge in one spot, rewind time, grab the 20 gauge and shoot him in a better stop, the 20 gauge will drop him faster.

 

[Marine Cpl]

Ever heard of Barnes?

That's one. But Gold Dot isn't. My point is that any old hollow point in a larger caliber will not get the job done. If it penetrates enough that's great. Not so if it doesn't.

This is why experienced big bore pistol hunters use flat nosed hard casts.

 

[GOPerfect]

Anybody else besides me ever draw their semi-auto handgun to find the magazine gone somewhere in the woods and now you have a single shot pistol?

In my years working at Gander, I found three full mags while walking around the store!

 

[ECU Pirates]

That's one. But Gold Dot isn't. My point is that any old hollow point in a larger caliber will not get the job done. If it penetrates enough that's great. Not so if it doesn't.

This is why experienced big bore pistol hunters use flat nosed hard casts.

Not really... Have you ever shot a deer with a pistol? Many use hunting hollow points. Some even used old self defense hp's (I disagree with using them). Hardcast not needed for deer and many other animals. Dangerous game protection sure. The barnes are nice because they are mild in recoil but very very effective. I have used the 140 gr .357 mag and was very impressed. A 9mm is not a proper gizz defense gun. No matter what it's loaded with. That guy was lucky. 10mm hardcast is a much better option if one does not like revolvers.

 

[Marine Cpl]

In my years working at Gander, I found three full mags while walking around the store!

What do you think is the cause? It's never happened to me. Just last week I hiked up to the top of Schunemunk Mountain. I was on my hands and knees on some brief spots banging up against rocks and shit.

 

[Marine Cpl]

Not really... Have you ever shot a deer with a pistol? Many use hunting hollow points. Some even used old self defense hp's (I disagree with using them). Hardcast not needed for deer and many other animals. Dangerous game protection sure. The barnes are nice because they are mild in recoil but very very effective. I have used the 140 gr .357 mag and was very impressed. A 9mm is not a proper gizz defense gun. No matter what it's loaded with. That guy was lucky. 10mm hardcast is a much better option if one does not like revolvers.

Deer and bear are different. 120 lbs vs ...... You get the idea. Any good hollow point that penetrates enough on a human will be penetrate the same on a deer.

Not so on a bear.

11 rounds of 147 gr Hardcast is enough for me against a small black bear.

 

[ECU Pirates]

Deer and bear are different. 120 lbs vs ...... You get the idea. Any good hollow point that penetrates enough on a human will be penetrate the same on a deer.

Not so on a bear.

120 pounds? You shooting babies haha?

 

[ECU Pirates]

What do you think is the cause? It's never happened to me. Just last week I hiked up to the top of Schunemunk Mountain. I was on my hands and knees on some brief spots banging up against rocks and shit.

It's holsters that cover the mag release and are not very sturdy most of the time. AKA shit holsters.

 

[Marine Cpl]

120 pounds? You shooting babies haha?

I don't deer hunt. Regardless, a deer is a soft animal like us.

 

[Marine Cpl]

Going under ground. I'll argue some more later.

 

[GOPerfect]

What do you think is the cause? It's never happened to me. Just last week I hiked up to the top of Schunemunk Mountain. I was on my hands and knees on some brief spots banging up against rocks and shit.

Bad or incorrect holsters.

I used to find it very funny and sad at the same time, people would buy very nice guns (expensive guns) and buy the cheapest holster possible.

Sorry, I am sure that there are some here who use them, but the Cheap, Uncle Mikes for $15 were some of the fastest selling holsters.

 

[Snappo]

Why for carry? I'm curious on why anyone would make that choice.

I get the whole," Because I want to that's why!" I also get the whole, "It's a collector's piece or I like how it looks."

So why for carry when criminals who are armed will be better armed than you?

The way I see it, a revolver is a relic. There are an extremely low number of police agencies and militaries that will issue it to their officers or soldiers due to it's low capacity and clumsy reloading ability.

If you spend 5 minutes after a shooting event looking for your brass; you increase your chances of being found at the scene of that shooting. Revolvers don't have that problem.

 

[nortatoga]

Bad or incorrect holsters.

I used to find it very funny and sad at the same time, people would buy very nice guns (expensive guns) and buy the cheapest holster possible.

Sorry, I am sure that there are some here who use them, but the Cheap, Uncle Mikes for $15 were some of the fastest selling holsters.

Or buy a off brand pistol to save a few bucks, And then have to spend more then they saved for a custom holster because the selection was so poor!

 

[dsdmmat]

Bad or incorrect holsters.

I used to find it very funny and sad at the same time, people would buy very nice guns (expensive guns) and buy the cheapest holster possible.

Sorry, I am sure that there are some here who use them, but the Cheap, Uncle Mikes for $15 were some of the fastest selling holsters.

I have a few uncle mike's holsters, used to use them for IPSC events. Very fast on the draw with them. For carry I use Bianchi or Galco.

 

[GOPerfect]

I have a few uncle mike's holsters, used to use them for IPSC events. Very fast on the draw with them. For carry I use Bianchi or Galco.

Do you use the cheaper, $10-15 models?

 

[Marine Cpl]

Do you use the cheaper, $10-15 models?

I guess so.

 

[Cippee]

I can think of one bonus with a revolver. If you were getting attacked at close range like tackled to the ground you could fire the weapon at point blank. If the person tried to grab the gun it would still fire no matter what. Now an semi would go out of battery and no fire. If someone grabbed to gun and pushed the slide back no fire. So revolvers do have two advantages. Also they have a few 8 shot revolvers. I know some semi's have stand off but most do not.

 

[Darth]

I can think of one bonus with a revolver. If you were getting attacked at close range like tackled to the ground you could fire the weapon at point blank. If the person tried to grab the gun it would still fire no matter what. Now an semi would go out of battery and no fire. If someone grabbed to gun and pushed the slide back no fire. So revolvers do have two advantages. Also they have a few 8 shot revolvers. I know some semi's have stand off but most do not.

You know the exact same thing happens with revolvers correct?