Army Chief : Infantry Needs New Rifle !

[holdover]

The ballistic shock of the larger round is evident even without fragmentation. the 556 round can ice pick right through a target with much less , which is probably the cause of its reputation of less stopping power.

 

[Marine Cpl]

Then why switch?

You do realize they switched back right?

 

[holdover]

Nope I never heard about it. I heard the Border Patrol still carries the .40

 

[Marine Cpl]

The ballistic shock of the larger round is evident even without fragmentation. the 556 round can ice pick right through a target with much less , which is probably the cause of its reputation of less stopping power.

A larger round ice picks too if it doesn't fragment. You should really read up on it if you really want to understand ballistics instead of repeating myths.

 

[holdover]

Myths??? I just posted a video on the ballistic gel , what are you not understanding?

I posted a video on the stopping power vs a deer

I just posted multiple stories from vets

I have spoken with vets personally who confirm it.

I don't know why you insist its a myth

 

[holdover]

What do you think of the 50 bmg vs the 556? and why?

Are your going to tell me they're equal ?

The size and weight have an obvious factor.

 

[Marine Cpl]

What do you think of the 50 bmg vs the 556? and why?

Are your going to tell me they're equal ?

The size and weight have an obvious factor.

I'm not going to even answer that ridiculous question.

 

[Marine Cpl]

Holdover. Read a little about ballistics would you? Find out the differences a FMJ does vs a Hollowpoint on soft tissue. Find out what a heavier weight bullet does in a thin body in a FMJ configuration vs a lighter one in the same caliber also of a FMJ configuration . Find out if a round that is .40 in diameter going at the same speed as a round .355 in diameter is doing more significant damage.

I'm out of here.

 

[holdover]

I'm not going to even answer that ridiculous question.

You cant answer it with out contradicting your self. Its a scientific fact that the larger round is going to have more energy at similar velocity's. The myth is that the 556 performs just as well. It doesn't . it a fact of physics.

Dr. Fackler’s seminal research at the Letterman Army Institute of Research Wound Ballistic Laboratory during the 1980’s illuminated the yaw and fragmentation mechanism by which 5.56 mm FMJ bullets create wounds in tissue. If 5.56 mm bullets fail to upset (yaw, fragment, or deform) within tissue, the results are relatively insignificant wounds, similar to those produced by .22 long rifle bullets--this is true for ALL 5.56 mm bullets, including both military FMJ and OTM (open tip match) and civilian JHP/JSP designs used in law enforcement. As expected, with decreased wounding effects, rapid incapacitation is unlikely: enemy soldiers may continue to pose a threat to friendly forces and violent suspects can remain a danger to law enforcement personnel and the public. This failure of 5.56 mm bullets to yaw and fragment can be caused by reduced impact velocities as when fired from short barrel weapons or when the range to the target increases. Failure to yaw and fragment can also occur when the bullets pass through only minimal tissue, such as a limb or the chest of a thin, small statured individual, as the bullet may exit the body before it has a chance to yaw and fragment. In addition, 5.56 mm bullets are less effective when intermediate barriers, such as walls, glass, and vehicles shield opponents.

The JSWB-IPT identified two issues that significantly alter projectile terminal performance at CQB distances, thus causing differing terminal effects. First, Angle-of-Attack (AOA) variability at impact can substantially wound severity; this factor is more prevalent with certain calibers and projectile types. Testing demonstrated that 5.56 mm is highly susceptible to AOA variations, particularly when using FMJ projectiles such as M193 & M855. For example, with 5.56 mm FMJ, at higher AOA’s, for example 2-3 degrees, bullets had a shorter neck length (NL) and upset rapidly, thus providing adequate terminal effects; at low AOA, like 0-1 degree, the projectiles penetrated deeper than ideal prior to initial upset (ie. long NL) with significantly reduced terminal effects. Note that other calibers were less susceptible to AOA variations than 5.56 mm and OTM’s tend to have less AOA issues than FMJ. The 6.8 mm has proved to have the least AOA inconsistencies of any caliber tested to date. Fleet Yaw is the other significant yaw issue discovered by the JSWB-IPT. Fleet Yaw is the terminal performance variation caused by inherent variability in each rifle. 5.56 mm FMJ had the most Fleet Yaw induced variability of any projectile caliber & type. 6.8 mm had the least Fleet Yaw variations of any projectile caliber & type tested.

What this means is that two shooters firing the same lot of M855 from their M4’s with identical shot placement can have dramatically different terminal performance results: one shooter states that his M855 is working great and is effective at dropping bad guys, while the other complains his opponent is not being incapacitated because M855 is zipping right through the target without upsetting. Both shooters are telling the truth…

 

[Marine Cpl]

I said I'm out of here but to answer the question, a .50 bullet is significantly bigger than a .223 bullet. If both don't fragment, of course the .50 bullet will make a bigger hole when it pin pricks through.

Do you even know what pin prick is? If it doesn't fragment, expand, or tumble, it pin pricks and transfers very little energy.

Do you think a .50 caliber pistol will leave a bigger hole than a .308 rifle at close range.

Do you think a .308 at long range will leave a bigger hole than a .223 at close range?

 

[holdover]

I said I'm out of here but to answer the question, a .50 bullet is significantly bigger than a .223 bullet. If both don't fragment, of course the .50 bullet will make a bigger hole when it pin pricks through.

Thank you. you just made my point.

Do you even know what pin prick is? If it doesn't fragment, expand, or tumble, it pin pricks and transfers very little energy.

Of course I know what it is. Now that's not completely true. its called hydrostatic shock, and it rips and cuts tissue and organs apart never being touched by the bullet itself . the hydrostatic shock on a smaller round is by nature going to be less than the hydrostatic shock from a larger round with similar velocity . That's just physics .

Do you think a .50 caliber pistol will leave a bigger hole than a .308 rifle at close range.

Not familiar with the 50., really cant answer that.

 

[holdover]

We have a difference of opinion on it. that's fine. Im baseing it on everything I ever read and from grunts in the field with personal kills .
I don't think I'm going to convince anyone but that's just my opinion on it

 

[Marine Cpl]

We have a difference of opinion on it. that's fine. Im baseing it on everything I ever read and from grunts in the field with personal kills .
I don't think I'm going to convince anyone but that's just my opinion on it

You do realize that grunts know absolutely nothing about ballistics. Ask me how I know.

 

[Marine Cpl]

Here is a .223 deer wound at close range. 3300 fps. The hole will be bigger than a .308 going at 2650 fps. Now if they are both at range below 2000 fps, neither will have that permanent stretch cavity. They'll pin prick and the .308 hole would be .85 bigger than the .223.

 

[holdover]

You do realize that grunts know absolutely nothing about ballistics. Ask me how I know.

LOL, I know ,But this isn't a simple case of ballistics, its about whether that guy you shot is dead or is he waiting to get a shot off at you.
even grunts know when they' re being fired upon. And they may not be ballistics experts but when they inspect the body and find 5 holes in the target .They wonder why the first round center mass didn't drop the guy . They wonder why it took the last round to the head to stop him from fireing. As a general rule, if the guy is still fireing on you, he's probably not very dead. That doesn't take a ballistic expert to understand.

 

[holdover]

Here is a .223 deer wound at close range. 3300 fps. The hole will be bigger than a .308 going at 2650 fps. (Yeahhhhhhhh I don't know about that that's only a 650 fps difference) Now if they are both at range below 2000 fps, neither will have that permanent stretch cavity. They'll pin prick and the .308 hole would be .85 bigger than the .223.

Standard ball issue ? Did your deer run or drop in place? ( looks like you tore his heart out) Im not so sure about that Will, 2000 FPS should still be enough to give you heartburn . I Had read that the energy of a 308 at 1000 yards is about the same energy level as a 357 magnum at point blank range.

View attachment 15249

 

[holdover]

Let me get this this straight, your saying that a smaller rifle round will do just as good as a larger one at similar velocity's?

That the 556 round is the best round we can give the troops?

and everything I posted is nonsense?

 

[holdover]

Heres a medical report on wound ballistics done for the military

http://www.dtic.mil/dtic/tr/fulltext/u2/a221395.pdf

 

[Marine Cpl]

Let me get this this straight, your saying that a smaller rifle round will do just as good as a larger one at similar velocity's?

That the 556 round is the best round we can give the troops?

and everything I posted is nonsense?

No. I'm not saying that. I'm saying that in certain instances, the .223 outperforms a larger caliber and in certain instances the larger caliber outperforms the smaller one.

I already established that. Bigger isn't always better and smaller isn't always better.

For example. In FMJ, a 9mm will out penetrate a .45 in hard objects due to the velocity. The .45 will out penetrate the 9mm in soft objects due to weight. But when the object is a small body, they both pass through where it doesn't matter.

All those stories you hear about a guy taking 6 rounds of 9mm and not falling but another one just taking 1 shot of .45 and instantly falling is tales. They both pass through. 1 mm and change isn't going to steal the guys soul.

 

[Marine Cpl]

That the 556 round is the best round we can give the troops?

and everything I posted is nonsense?

Yes. It actually is unless you go to 6.8 or Grendal. But giving them a 30.06 like you want is the worst that can happen to them. Those are only good for range and not CQB.

 

[holdover]

I never said 3006, would be better,Lol I used it for an exsample of a heavier round , that's all. the 06 is a little to much bullet . I like the 6mm family too . I really think that would be a better general purpose round than the 556 . I mentioned it in my posts

 

[Robin]

Been saying it for over forty years, for the infantry main battle weapon the .556 is inadequate.
Robin

 

[GOPerfect]

How about staying with the M4? I never had an issue with that gun. It did everything it was designed to do; never failed me and never failed to do its' mission!

 

[holdover]

Ever kill anybody with it? or witness it?

The reason Im asking is because most of the vets I talked to who have , almost always say it took more than one shot to stop the threat. (barring a head or spine shot )

It works , but Personally, I think we can do much better than the 556

 

[DoD1776]

nuff' said

 

[meketrefe]

Stoner said, I have 3 requirements from the ARMY: 1-Weight 2-Weight 3-Weight.
This is still the same today even more important than back then.
People like more power but do not want the weight.
That is what the 6.8 SPC was created for.
They also like a light carbine in 16"
in these rifles and shorter the 6.8 SPCII makes more sense than anything else.
Perfect compromise between weight and firepower w/o compromising the already very heavy load.

No need to reinvent the wheel. It is already invented.

 

[meketrefe]

A service load for the SPCII chamber could pump a 90gr bullet close to 3000fps and 59k psi safely.
I know this because I have done it myself and w/o ill effect to the brass or the firearm.
Of course for reloaders the brass is not going to last that long but not a problem for Army use.
The 6.8 case is also a perfect candidate for a 90gr 6mm round that will not put as much speed
at the muzzle but will be as fast at 100 yards already.
This is the perfect compact service caliber IMO. Two loads could be available one very fast for
average distances and the other for long range and marksman/snipers.
Of course the most pussy ammo we have today for the SPC1 has nothing to do with the SPC II.
so for performance one has to reload. SSA used to have some very good hot stuff before
they became nosler.

 

[holdover]

You don't think 90gr, is a little light?

 

[Marine Cpl]

You don't think 90gr, is a little light?

A 90 gr bullet going at 3000 fps produces a larger stretch cavity at short distances than a heavier grain of the same diameter going at 500 fps less.

Also velocity does better against armor than heavier and slower. Heavier and slower works better at distance.

 

[Podmonkey]

Its been established by the British shortly after WWII that often times soliders are an unreliable source of valid feedback regarding their weapons. Our own soliders illustrated this when asked hiwbthe M1 Garand could be improved and overwhelmingly said no improvements could be made when clearly things like detachable magazines and lighter weight are desirable and easily implemented changes. I heard tons of 5.56 stories too and the pattern is typically "I shot him 5 times before a burst from an M240 got him". I imagine a burst from a machinegun following 5 hits from a carbine would be quite effective.
When you consider the fact most shooters cant hit shit anyways you need to look for the solution that makes those hits easier to come by and in extremely high volumes. 5.56 is easier to hit targets with and failling that at least gives you ample opportunity to keep trying. And besides that most of the stories of ineffectiveness come from the use of M855 with its delayed yawing and unpredictable fragmentation against very skinny targets. In Vietnam the M193 was well liked for its effect on target and there are several documented statements from NVA forces that show they were awedband fearful of the volume of fire that an American rifle platoon could generate with the M16. Newer cartridges such as the 77gr Mk262 and the various "barrier blind" loads have drastically improved the 5.56's performance.