Virginia bans no-knock warrants

[drowhawk]

Virginia bans no-knock warrants as Gov. Northam signs sweeping police reform legislation

Virginia became the third state to ban no-knock warrants after Democratic Gov. Ralph Northam on Wednesday signed several sweeping new laws to reform policing after the deaths of George Floyd and Breonna Taylor led to a national reckoning on racial bias.

www.foxnews.com

I'll probably get a lot of flak for this but I don't care.

*Queue celebration by Kool & The Gang*

Hopefully FUAC implements some of these measures soon too. No-knock warrants and police militarization are BS.

 

[Saltwater60]

This is not a bad thing. If used they should be very sparingly under surveillance to know only the wanted individual is inside and dangerous.

 

[Rocpo]

Succinctly, define "militarization of the police."
I'll stand by.

 

[drowhawk]

Militarization of the police is when they outfit with surplus military equipment and use military tactics to fight crime against civilians.

 

[spat]

Succinctly, define "militarization of the police."
I'll stand by.

Use of weapons and equipment forbidden to the general public.

 

[drowhawk]

Use of weapons and equipment forbidden to the general public.

EXACTLY. 2A exists to balance the market on violent force between government and civilians. LE has an unfair advantage.

 

[Rocpo]

Militarization of the police is when they outfit with surplus military equipment and use military tactics to fight crime against civilians.

And what specific "military tactics" are being used against citizens? Are we using drone strikes? Calling for artillery strikes? Close Air Support from an A10?

Use of weapons and equipment forbidden to the general public.

What weapons are forbidden to the general public? I've yet to see the use of Napalm, 155mm and 40mm grenades.

 

[drowhawk]

And what specific "military tactics" are being used against citizens? Are we using drone strikes? Calling for artillery strikes? Close Air Support from an A10?



What weapons are forbidden to the general public? I've yet to see the use of Napalm, 155mm and 40mm grenades.

Question 1: No knock raids, warrantless wiretapping (Patriot act), etc. Just because there no fighter jets or artillery strikes, doesn't mean they aren't using military tactics.

Question 2: Automatic weaponry, concussion grenades, APCs, etc.

 

[Blimey]

Seems like a bad decision (didn't read the article). There is absolutely a place for them. They are often overused and that is beyond dispute. But, some people who are deemed as highly likely to respond with lethal violence should be given a no-knock warrant. Just not for a guy who is a drug dealer with no history of violence; a polite knock is reasonable there.

 

[Truebeliever]

And what specific "military tactics" are being used against citizens? Are we using drone strikes? Calling for artillery strikes? Close Air Support from an A10?



What weapons are forbidden to the general public? I've yet to see the use of Napalm, 155mm and 40mm grenades.

It’s ironic that I have more firearm options now that I’m retired then I did when I was an active LEO.

As far as tactics. There is almost no tactic the police use that “civilians” haven’t used. In fact, the tactics are made to minimize the potential consequences to both the police , “ civilians”and often the perpetrator.

 

[Blimey]

Militarization of the police is when they outfit with surplus military equipment and use military tactics to fight crime against civilians.

It is actually hard to define, IMO. I agree it's a bit over the top and cops rolling around in bearcats for a guy who dealt a pound of marijuana is really unnecessary and silly. But, as for tactics a lot of tactics are just combat tactics and make sense when engaging with violence, whether in military or not.

 

[Rocpo]

1) No knock raids are warrants issued by a Judge giving that specific exception to the usual knock and announce. There are reasons that the endorsement is signed off on with the judge's approval. That being a known dangerous individual, or the ability to recover evidence. I'm willing to wager that the recent warrant services on subjects that have been trafficking people have been no knocks.

Warrantless wiretapping (PATRIOT Act) is FEDERAL. Your local PD/Sheriffs office isn't using the PATRIOT act against Joe Drugseller.

Again, I'm looking for specific tactics that you've stated are militarized against citizens. It's ok if you truly can't find one. I highly doubt you will be able to. I'd just prefer that people don't toss around particular wording without knowing what they're talking about.

2) Normal American citizens (NOT in NY) can own select fire weapons, suppressors, 37mm less lethal launchers, etc. Hell, I once contemplated purchasing this even as an NY citizen for shits and grins. Military Tank for Sale-FV721 FOX ARMORED CAR - AtlanticFirearms.com

 

[spat]

And what specific "military tactics" are being used against citizens? Are we using drone strikes? Calling for artillery strikes? Close Air Support from an A10?



What weapons are forbidden to the general public? I've yet to see the use of Napalm, 155mm and 40mm grenades.

Cops can buy brand new full auto rifles at reasonable prices.

If it's reasonable for them, it should be reasonable for all of us.

Same with all the 40mm DD toys.

When the military surpluses out an MRAP, cops shouldn't just get it. They should have to out bid me for it at an auction if they want it. If they don’t want "civilians" to get them, that should include the civilians with badges too.

Basically, if any police department issues it, that should be prima facia evidence that it is in "common use" and beyond the government's ability to restrict.

 

[Rocpo]

It is actually hard to define, IMO. I agree it's a bit over the top and cops rolling around in bearcats for a guy who dealt a pound of marijuana is really unnecessary and silly. But, as for tactics a lot of tactics are just combat tactics and make sense when engaging with violence, whether in military or not.

Generally its not a guy dealing a pound of MJ that gets the Bearcat out. It's the guy dealing a pound of MJ that has firearms in the residence (usually illegally in possession of) or connections to heavier dealers.
It'd be a stupid idea to walk up to the residence in soft body armor, knowing the guy behind the door has a weapon capable to punching through that armor.
Contrary to popular belief, when I swore in as a cop there was no suicide pact clause.

 

[Rocpo]

Cops can buy brand new full auto rifles at reasonable prices.

If it's reasonable for them, it should be reasonable for all of us.

Same with all the 40mm DD toys.

When the military surpluses out an MRAP, coos shouldn't just get it. They should have to out bid be for it at an auction if they want it. If they don’t want "civilians" to get them, that should include the civilians with badges too.

Basically, if any police department issues it, that should be prima facia evidence that it is in "common use" and beyond the government's ability to restrict.

BULLSHIT. Agencies CAN purchase full auto rifles. Cops CANNOT.
37mm* No agency has 40mm grenade launchers. The LTL Launchers are SPECIFICALLY smaller so they can't be used to launch 40mm grenades.
That has nothing to do with police militarization. That's the government whose selling off the MRAPS decision.

 

[dsdmmat]

the definition of militarization has gotten skewed over time.

it use to mean the changing of the uniforms from the business shirt, tie and slacks With an equipment belt to the fatigues with body armor and all the accessories typically seen used by SWAT teams or Soldiers being used by the Everyday officer on the street and the addition of excess military hardware like the APC M113.

now it means “anything I don’t think they should be using”

so the term has been reduced to the same level of usefulness as the terms racism or Nazi.

 

[Rocpo]

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Feel free to order.

 

[drowhawk]

I'm not going to do the research for you. There is an overabundance of information on the subject. Simple fact is: the republicans have neglected pro-liberty and pro-freedom folks like myself for far too long. Hence why I will NEVER vote republican. Democrats have neglected my demographic in terms of market regulation and firearms rights. I will NEVER vote democrat.

So if you're ever wondering why all those new gun-owners don't vote your way (which they won't), please reference this conversation. Pro-liberty folks want to see the power taken away from the government and given back to the people. I think VA is much closer to that goal now than most.

Maybe if we make an exception for child abusers and traffickers, I would support no knock raids. Until then all they do is bust up people committing victimless "crimes."

 

[Rocpo]

the definition of militarization has gotten skewed over time.

it use to mean the changing of the uniforms from the business shirt, tie and slacks With an equipment belt to the fatigues with body armor and all the accessories typically seen used by SWAT teams or Soldiers being used by the Everyday officer on the street and the addition of excess military hardware like the APC M113.

now it means “anything I don’t think they should be using”

so the term has been reduced to the same level of usefulness as the terms racism or Nazi.

My agency requires an "old school" police uniform. Slacks (no BDU pants) which are absolutely horrible for patrol work. They're expensive as hell ($190 per pair, compared to $80 for BDUs), they don't move well, Shiny buttons (wonderful for nighttime patrol...just follow the shiny to aim at my face).

Outer vest carriers? That's for comfort and to alleviate back problems. I'm not a fan at all of MOLLE vests where dudes look like they're holding a street corner in Fallujah. But a uniform shirt style, or one with a couple pouches to get shit off my belt and a little weight off my back? All for it.

And my hatred of baseball caps in patrol uniforms....

 

[dsdmmat]

My agency requires an "old school" police uniform. Slacks (no BDU pants) which are absolutely horrible for patrol work. They're expensive as hell ($190 per pair, compared to $80 for BDUs), they don't move well, Shiny buttons (wonderful for nighttime patrol...just follow the shiny to aim at my face).

Outer vest carriers? That's for comfort and to alleviate back problems. I'm not a fan at all of MOLLE vests where dudes look like they're holding a street corner in Fallujah. But a uniform shirt style, or one with a couple pouches to get shit off my belt and a little weight off my back? All for it.

And my hatred of baseball caps in patrol uniforms....

Like I said the term is about as useful as racist or Nazi

as the threat increases the equipment changes. The change from The guys dressed like Adam 12 patrols to For lack of a better term “mall ninja” occurred in response to the uptick in violent crime in the 70s. Once you break an egg it is hard to fix it. That is how we got here today.

 

[Rocpo]

I'm not going to do the research for you. There is an overabundance of information on the subject. Simple fact is: the republicans have neglected pro-liberty and pro-freedom folks like myself for far too long. Hence why I will NEVER vote republican. Democrats have neglected my demographic in terms of market regulation and firearms rights. I will NEVER vote democrat.

So if you're ever wondering why all those new gun-owners don't vote your way (which they won't), please reference this conversation. Pro-liberty folks want to see the power taken away from the government and given back to the people. I think VA is much closer to that goal now than most.

Maybe if we make an exception for child abusers and traffickers, I would support no knock raids. Until then all they do is bust up people committing victimless "crimes."

I'm VERY well versed in the issues you've brought up. I don't need you to research for myself, but for your own knowledge. You spout off not knowing anything about what you speak. Educate yourself on the topic at hand, then come back with some facts.
VA is on it's way to creating untold numbers of innocent victims. Between their stance on removing certain traffic offenses which will begin to kill and maim innocent people, to their stance on releasing criminals, it's gonna become a mess.
What do you define as "victimless crimes"? Narcotics? In my career, I've never been a big narcotics guy. I prefer DWIs. However, I can assure you that narcotics offenses are NOT "victimless." The victim isn't the volunteer who shot up. The victim is the volunteer's family. Friends. Community.

 

[drowhawk]

Racist and Nazi are subjective and abstract terms.

Police militarization means what it means.

I have the utmost respect for our LEO's that put their lives on the line every day. This isn't about that.

It's about a government that has too much control. Too much infringement. There comes a point where you sacrifice too much freedom in the name of safety and the only people paying the price are the people.

 

[Rocpo]

Racist and Nazi are subjective and abstract terms.

Police militarization means what it means.

I have the utmost respect for our LEO's that put their lives on the line every day. This isn't about that.

It's about a government that has too much control. Too much infringement. There comes a point where you sacrifice too much freedom in the name of safety and the only people paying the price are the people.

Not really. Racist - A person who is prejudiced against or antagonistic toward people on the basis of their membership in a particular racial or ethnic group, typically one that is a minority or marginalized. (Oxford definition).
Nazi - Member of National Socialist Party of Germany.

Pretty obvious what they mean.

Still waiting for your meaning of Police Militarization.

 

[spat]

1) No knock raids are warrants issued by a Judge giving that specific exception to the usual knock and announce. There are reasons that the endorsement is signed off on with the judge's approval. That being a known dangerous individual, or the ability to recover evidence. I'm willing to wager that the recent warrant services on subjects that have been trafficking people have been no knocks.

Warrantless wiretapping (PATRIOT Act) is FEDERAL. Your local PD/Sheriffs office isn't using the PATRIOT act against Joe Drugseller.

Again, I'm looking for specific tactics that you've stated are militarized against citizens. It's ok if you truly can't find one. I highly doubt you will be able to. I'd just prefer that people don't toss around particular wording without knowing what they're talking about.

2) Normal American citizens (NOT in NY) can own select fire weapons, suppressors, 37mm less lethal launchers, etc. Hell, I once contemplated purchasing this even as an NY citizen for shits and grins. Military Tank for Sale-FV721 FOX ARMORED CAR - AtlanticFirearms.com

Normal citizens cannot buy full auto manufacturerd after '86. Cops can. There is no excuse for your AR costing $1200 and one I can get costing $25k

37mm becomes a DD and needs to be federally registered the minute you buy a CS round for it. In many states that is doable, but not NY.

No knocks have very limited circumstances where they would be reasonable. "collection of evidence" is not among them.

It's been proven that they will not be limited to reasonable circumstances, and judges will rubber stamp requests that should have been denied.

Consequently we are better off banning them completely. The harm of banning them is less than the harm of allowing them to continue to be abused.

Sorry, your peers have abused the privilege and now everybody needs to lose it. If

BULLSHIT. Agencies CAN purchase full auto rifles. Cops CANNOT.
37mm* No agency has 40mm grenade launchers. The LTL Launchers are SPECIFICALLY smaller so they can't be used to launch 40mm grenades.
That has nothing to do with police militarization. That's the government whose selling off the MRAPS decision.

This entire discussion is about militarization of police. What you guys can do on your own is irrelevant. The discussion *is* about what the departments and agencies can do.

A 37mm launcher possessed at the same time as any LTL round is a DD per the ATF and needs to be registered same as a 40mm.

Police *are* "the government". You getting an MRAP is one branch of "the government" transferring it to another branch of "the government".

The point is that cops shouldn't be able to get stuff that isn't available to the public. What mechanism the government chooses to use to deny the public access is irrelevant. Even if all they're doing is telling the manufacturer "don't sell to civilians or we won't buy from you" it should be illegal.

 

[drowhawk]

I'm VERY well versed in the issues you've brought up. I don't need you to research for myself, but for your own knowledge. You spout off not knowing anything about what you speak. Educate yourself on the topic at hand, then come back with some facts.
VA is on it's way to creating untold numbers of innocent victims. Between their stance on removing certain traffic offenses which will begin to kill and maim innocent people, to their stance on releasing criminals, it's gonna become a mess.
What do you define as "victimless crimes"? Narcotics? In my career, I've never been a big narcotics guy. I prefer DWIs. However, I can assure you that narcotics offenses are NOT "victimless." The victim isn't the volunteer who shot up. The victim is the volunteer's family. Friends. Community.

You have no empirical data to support your stance. None. Zilch. It doesn't exist.

There is an abundance of data to support mine.

I have had several family members fall into addiction. I don't consider myself a victim and neither does anyone else in the family. When an overdose call comes in and paramedics can't save the guy/gal, I don't consider myself a victim as a community member. I've had friends commit suicide by overdose; again, no victim status.

Again, you have no data. You have an opinion and I respect that. I also respectfully disagree based on the data.

 

[drowhawk]

Not really. Racist - A person who is prejudiced against or antagonistic toward people on the basis of their membership in a particular racial or ethnic group, typically one that is a minority or marginalized. (Oxford definition).
Nazi - Member of National Socialist Party of Germany.

Pretty obvious what they mean.

Still waiting for your meaning of Police Militarization.

You just copy+pasted a definition that quite literally supports my argument that the terms are abstract and subjective. There is no "racist test." There is no "Nazi test." I can pull empirical data (budgets, revenues, civil asset forfeitures) that support my argument and make it virtually irrefutable. It's public information.

There is not a public database that logs racists or nazis, because it's subjective and cannot be measured. I can measure how many APCs my local PD has. I can measure how many fully automatic weapons they buy. Again, public information.

Why is this so difficult to convey?

 

[drowhawk]

Consequently we are better off banning them completely. The harm of banning them is less than the harm of allowing them to continue to be abused.

Exactly. There is way too much collateral damage from this policy. There's virtually no benefit.

 

[dsdmmat]

Not really. Racist - A person who is prejudiced against or antagonistic toward people on the basis of their membership in a particular racial or ethnic group, typically one that is a minority or marginalized. (Oxford definition).
Nazi - Member of National Socialist Party of Germany.

Pretty obvious what they mean.

Still waiting for your meaning of Police Militarization.

The do have a real definition but, are not reserved/used in modern terms to that definition, rendering them useless in the modern era. Just as militarization, a term which at one time used to mean something Specific and now it means “everything, I think it does.”

 

[Rocpo]

Normal citizens cannot buy full auto manufacturerd after '86. Cops can. There is no excuse for your AR costing $1200 and one I can get costing $25k

37mm becomes a DD and needs to be federally registered the minute you buy a CS round for it. In many states that is doable, but not NY.

No knocks have very limited circumstances where they would be reasonable. "collection of evidence" is not among them.

It's been proven that they will not be limited to reasonable circumstances, and judges will rubber stamp requests that should have been denied.

Consequently we are better off banning them completely. The harm of banning them is less than the harm of allowing them to continue to be abused.

Sorry, your peers have abused the privilege and now everybody needs to lose it. If

This entire discussion is about militarization of police. What you guys can do on your own is irrelevant. The discussion *is* about what the departments and agencies can do.

A 37mm launcher possessed at the same time as any LTL round is a DD per the ATF and needs to be registered same as a 40mm.

Police *are* "the government". You getting an MRAP is one branch of "the government" transferring it to another branch of "the government".

The point is that cops shouldn't be able to get stuff that isn't available to the public. What mechanism the government chooses to use to deny the public access is irrelevant. Even if all they're doing is telling the manufacturer "don't sell to civilians or we won't buy from you" it should be illegal.

Again.
Cop - person employed to enforce laws in a jurisdiction CANNOT personally buy a post 86 select fire weapon. Period.
Police agency - a law enforcement organization CAN legally buy a post 86 select fire weapon.
I can legally possess one, per 265.20, similar to members of the National Guard or MIlitary. I CANNOT personally purchase one.

37mm BECOMING a DD is again a federal restriction. You can legally purchase a 37mm launcher.

I'm pretty sure that the reasonableness of a no knock warrant is up to the issuing judge and the facts of the particular case.

Source for your proof that they get "rubber stamped"?

So by some people abusing their 2A rights (Adam Lanza, Dylan Roof, et al.) you should lose your rights? Or should there be more reasonable restrictions to ensure that you don't commit crimes with them?

 

[turbobike]

Police militarization means what it means...
A) Patrol man. Corporals, Sargent's, Lieutenants, Captains..Etc same as military ranks
B) Hardened "Police Station" fortresses and buildings, fences, camera's.
C) Many using FULL SWAT gear during everyday use, only thing missing are having to wear helmets full-time like combat soldiers
D) Mobile Command posts, and just off the battle field hardened vehicles.
E) 20 years of service equals a pension.

Not here to bash police, we should realize, that when we moved on from the "Peace Officers" think Andy Griffith, to "LAW Enforcement"...like a dedicated Cuomo State Police agent, police and the rest of community have become disconnected.