9mm Hard Cast for Bear

[Marine Cpl]

So here is a Hard Cast test for 10mm. The 200 gr bullet penetrated 58.5 inches. The 220 gr bullet penetrated 60 inches.

Underwood 10mm Hard Cast in Clear Ballistics Gel - AR15.COM

And here is the 9mm test. It’s 147 gr +p bullet penetrated to over 64 inches. It went through all 4 blocks and was captured by the ar500 plate.

Underwood 9mm & .40 S&W Hard Cast in Clear Ballistics Gel - AR15.COM

 

[Marine Cpl]

And the .45 Acp and that Super.

Underwood .45 ACP and .45 Super Hard Cast in Clear Ballistics Gel - AR15.COM

 

[spat]

60 inches in gel from a pistol bullet ?

Seems to me like that might not be full density gel or something....

I wouldn't think you could get depleted uranium to do that in pistol calibers and velocities.

 

[fresch]

Bear at the zoo or one charging?

 

[Marine Cpl]

60 inches in gel from a pistol bullet ?

Seems to me like that might not be full density gel or something....

I wouldn't think you could get depleted uranium to do that in pistol calibers and velocities.

Huh? It’s a hard cast. Not a hollow point.

 

[C3D]

That’s my new bear load after being out in the backcountry in Wyoming for a week long backpacking trip earlier this month,

Glock 10mm + 220gr hard cast lead. Controllable weapon, 15 round magazine, and complete familiarity with the firearm and its operation. Outweighs the marginal benefit of .454 or .500 S&W in a revolver at 2 pounds less weight.

 

[Criticalt]

Bears and gel could not be more different.
A 300 win magnum bullet can hit a bone and deflect allowing the bear to eat you.
Im not saying these bullets you posted cannot kill a bear, the 10mm is a proven bear killer.
My point is that a 50 BMG can deflect off a bears scapula and not penetrate any vital areas.
There was a guy in Canada not long ago who shot a pissed grizzly 9 times with I believe a 30-06. The bear kept the guy up a tree for 4.5 hours untill the bear died.
There are no guarantees when dealing with a big brown bear. Thousands more people have died from bear attacks than are reported. Many thousands of hikers go missing in the northern bush every year.
Ill be a large number of them are killed by bears. Dont let anyone kid you, we are bear food.
Anyways, every caliber from 22LR through a 950 JDJ can kill a bear. The problem comes in that 1.5 seconds you have to place pinpoint shots to vital organs.
The fact is, many people who shoot a brown bear are mauled anyways, even with large caliber rifles.

 

[C3D]

Bears and gel could not be more different.
A 300 win magnum bullet can hit a bone and deflect allowing the bear to eat you.
Im not saying these bullets you posted cannot kill a bear, the 10mm is a proven bear killer.
My point is that a 50 BMG can deflect off a bears scapula and not penetrate any vital areas.
There was a guy in Canada not long ago who shot a pissed grizzly 9 times with I believe a 30-06. The bear kept the guy up a tree for 4.5 hours untill the bear died.
There are no guarantees when dealing with a big brown bear. Thousands more people have died from bear attacks than are reported. Many thousands of hikers go missing in the northern bush every year.
Ill be a large number of them are killed by bears. Dont let anyone kid you, we are bear food.
Anyways, every caliber from 22LR through a 950 JDJ can kill a bear. The problem comes in that 1.5 seconds you have to place pinpoint shots to vital organs.
The fact is, many people who shoot a brown bear are mauled anyways, even with large caliber rifles.

Agreed on all points, and that’s a major plus for a Glock in 10mm. 15+1 rounds as fast as you can get them off, plus quick reloads. A revolver with 6 rounds and monster recoil may have more penetration but on balance the Glock seems more sensible.

 

[Marine Cpl]

Bears and gel could not be more different.
A 300 win magnum bullet can hit a bone and deflect allowing the bear to eat you.
Im not saying these bullets you posted cannot kill a bear, the 10mm is a proven bear killer.
My point is that a 50 BMG can deflect off a bears scapula and not penetrate any vital areas.
There was a guy in Canada not long ago who shot a pissed grizzly 9 times with I believe a 30-06. The bear kept the guy up a tree for 4.5 hours untill the bear died.
There are no guarantees when dealing with a big brown bear. Thousands more people have died from bear attacks than are reported. Many thousands of hikers go missing in the northern bush every year.
Ill be a large number of them are killed by bears. Dont let anyone kid you, we are bear food.
Anyways, every caliber from 22LR through a 950 JDJ can kill a bear. The problem comes in that 1.5 seconds you have to place pinpoint shots to vital organs.
The fact is, many people who shoot a brown bear are mauled anyways, even with large caliber rifles.

Correct. Gel isn’t a simulant. It’s medium that produces repeatable results where one can compare various loads. If one load penetrates 55 inches, you can test on that same medium if another load penetrates less or more.

If you look at that guy’s tests you can see that the .45 Super would be a better choice than the .45 Acp due to the greater penetration of the Super load.

 

[Edwardteach72]

Correct. Gel isn’t a simulant. It’s medium that produces repeatable results where one can compare various loads. If one load penetrates 55 inches, you can test on that same medium if another load penetrates less or more.

If you look at that guy’s tests you can see that the .45 Super would be a better choice than the .45 Acp due to the greater penetration of the Super load.

This right here. Gel =/= human/animal tissue, 12-18" isnt the same as in a body.

But gel is repeatable, @Marine Cpl can test loads A B and C in calibrated tests and talk about those results and I can take calibrated gel of my own and take loads A B and C and verify for myself

 

[Criticalt]

Correct. Gel isn’t a simulant. It’s medium that produces repeatable results where one can compare various loads. If one load penetrates 55 inches, you can test on that same medium if another load penetrates less or more.

If you look at that guy’s tests you can see that the .45 Super would be a better choice than the .45 Acp due to the greater penetration of the Super load.

Agreed
My point isthat alot of people look at these results a believe they are completely safe from bears because 60 inch penetration will reach a bears heart.
On a perfect day, with a perfect shot that may be true. But in reality, muscle, bone, tendons and movement can cut that penetration to 2 inches and cause the bullet to deflect.
A 100 yard broadside shot into vitals with a large caliber rifle is pretty easy.
But most bear attacks are from less than 10 yards. A bear can clear 10 yards in 1.5 seconds.
Ive been pretty close to brown bears(20 yards) with a 12 gauge and a 45-70 and still worried I was outmatched.

 

[Marine Cpl]

Now I’m not saying that because the 9mm penetrated the most that it is the best. A 147 gr 9mm or 200 gr 10mm will have a greater chance in deflecting off a bone reducing penetration compared to a heavier 255 gr .45 Super.

All I’m saying is that the 9mm isn’t a pea shooter like most say with a hard cast load and it has taken bear in the past many times. I wouldn’t feel under-gunned with it if hiking on a trail here in NY where if I did encounter a bear it would be a small black one.

If further up north, I would want a 10mm or a .45 Super just the same like down here I would feel totally comfortable hunting a deer with a .223 but further up north, I would want a .308 for an elk.

There is a misguided stigma with the 9mm as being puny due to it’s performance with cheap hollow point ammo. It isn’t accurate when using heavy hard cast loads.

 

[fresch]

21' is the distance a human can close on a fellow human in the same time a pistol can be drawn and fired.
A bear jumping out at ? With you holstered? Sounds like free lunch.
Bears are killed with arrows every year.

 

[Robin]

Bear jelly, yum!
Robin

 

[Marine Cpl]

Bear jelly, yum!
Robin

Your .45 did quite well Mr. Robin. You’d have a good chance in not being bear jelly.

 

[MilesTeg]

I might have to pick up some of these to reload. The only reason I posted it here was because the put the ribs in the gel. Neat idea not sure if it translates to anything.

 

[Acer-m14]

in NY a guy shot at a bear with a 22lr it died 100 yrds away later .. he got busted for it ..

Bear Killed with .22LR

“Mrs. Brown then grabbed a 22-caliber rifle from the corner to the right side of the sliding glass door, the bear turned away from the door quartering to the right, she cracked the door open and started firing at the bear,” wrote Wood in his report.
The woman then closed the door and ran to the bedroom to help her husband. The two later called the sheriff’s office.
Wood noted in his report that there was a smudge on the sliding glass door 17 inches down from the top, indicating where the bear had been standing on its hind legs, and multiple smudges on the lower two feet of the door apparently made by the bear.
It was determined by the officers that Juanita Brown fired 10 times at the bear and hit it six times. Three wounds were on the right side of the spine, from the front shoulder along the neck, and the other three were on the left side of the head and neck, at the jaw and ear and about five inches below the ear. The 10th round fired was not located.

 

[spat]

Huh? It’s a hard cast. Not a hollow point.

Hard cast < depleted uranium.

I'm saying 60 inches in gel seems unrealistic for even armor piercing pistol ammunition, certainly hard cast will penetrate better than hollow point, but I would need more evidence to convince me you could get 60 inches in calibrated gel.

If it's not calibrated gel but just something cooked up in the back yard, then it's only useful when compared to itself. Then the question becomes what does a common factory round do in that gel ?

If you're getting 60 inches in your homebrew gel it sounds great, now shoot a couple rounds of critical defense into it. If you get 50 inches with that, your 60 from your hand load is a lot less impressive.

 

[Marine Cpl]

Hard cast < depleted uranium.

I'm saying 60 inches in gel seems unrealistic for even armor piercing pistol ammunition, certainly hard cast will penetrate better than hollow point, but I would need more evidence to convince me you could get 60 inches in calibrated gel.

If it's not calibrated gel but just something cooked up in the back yard, then it's only useful when compared to itself. Then the question becomes what does a common factory round do in that gel ?

If you're getting 60 inches in your homebrew gel it sounds great, now shoot a couple rounds of critical defense into it. If you get 50 inches with that, your 60 from your hand load is a lot less impressive.

It’s clear ballistics gel that he’s using. It comes calibrated from the factory. It’s the most repeatable gel there is. It isn’t affected by temperature like the animal fat based gel is.

And if you look up hard cast loads from any tester out there using clear ballistics or regular gel, the results are the same. Massive penetration. Hard casts fly straight and do not veer off or tumble like round nose bullets do. Even the .380 hard casts do like 40 inches.

 

[spat]

It’s clear ballistics gel that he’s using. It comes calibrated from the factory. It’s the most repeatable gel there is. It isn’t affected by temperature like the animal fat based gel is.

And if you look up hard cast loads from any tester out there using clear ballistics or regular gel, the results are the same. Massive penetration. Hard casts fly straight and do not veer off or tumble like round nose bullets do. Even the .380 hard casts do like 40 inches.

Calibrated gel is calibrated after it is cast.

If you were to get "factory calibrated" gel it would have to come already formed in a solid block, and it would have a BB embedded in it from the calibration shot.

Beware anyone selling a "calibrated gel mix" or anything like that.

 

[Marine Cpl]

Calibrated gel is calibrated after it is cast.

If you were to get "factory calibrated" gel it would have to come already formed in a solid block, and it would have a BB embedded in it from the calibration shot.

Beware anyone selling a "calibrated gel mix" or anything like that.

It does come in a solid block.

Clear Ballistics

Believe what you want. A little research with hard cast loads will prove that hard casts do 40 to 60 inches in gel depending on the caliber. It’s been done multiple times with the same results.

 

[fresch]

Many buffalo and Indians were killed with lead.

 

[BDinPutnam]

Many buffalo and Indians were killed with lead.

Not to mention all of the Big Five in Africa, many times over.

'Course I dont know that I'd want to carry a Rigby for self defense.

 

[Upstate43]

Now I’m not saying that because the 9mm penetrated the most that it is the best. A 147 gr 9mm or 200 gr 10mm will have a greater chance in deflecting off a bone reducing penetration compared to a heavier 255 gr .45 Super.

All I’m saying is that the 9mm isn’t a pea shooter like most say with a hard cast load and it has taken bear in the past many times. I wouldn’t feel under-gunned with it if hiking on a trail here in NY where if I did encounter a bear it would be a small black one.

If further up north, I would want a 10mm or a .45 Super just the same like down here I would feel totally comfortable hunting a deer with a .223 but further up north, I would want a .308 for an elk.

There is a misguided stigma with the 9mm as being puny due to it’s performance with cheap hollow point ammo. It isn’t accurate when using heavy hard cast loads.

9mm is a puny pea shooter, at least for the purposes of wilderness defense. It can and has worked in the past against certain predators, but then again so has .22lr. There is a huge difference between what is possible and what is optimal. And there is absolutely nothing wrong with acknowledging 9mm's shortcomings, because there are benefits as well (lower recoil, more rounds, lower cost).

I hardly ever walk armed in black bear country. A pocket folder is the most that I feel obligated to carry. If I were to carry a 9mm would certainly be better than nothing, but ultimately .40s&w, 10mm and .357 magnum are much better suited for such applications. Guides have dumped 6 cylinders of .357 magnum into angry black bears with no immediate results (albeit the shot placement was likely lousy)...9mm requires the utmost in shot placement to be effective, and even then it may not always be effective (right away).

Brown bear country: no way I'd bother with a 9mm...just not worth the risk.

I don't mind people who prefer to use their daily CCW cartridge for impromptu predator defense, but I do have a problem with people preaching that 9mm and the like are just as effective as the bigger bear-stoppers (.357 magnum, 10mm, .44 magnum) and therefore those bigger cartridges are unwarranted.

 

[C3D]

Just a note, hard cast 10mm bullets should not be fired out of a factory Glock barrel.

 

[Edwardteach72]

Just a note, hard cast 10mm bullets should not be fired out of a factory Glock barrel.

Gen 5 will be ok

 

[JaguarJaguarGolf]

I remember a quote from some old gun guru along the lines of " you shouldn't be using a bullet for when everything goes right, you should be using a bullet for when everything goes wrong" .

 

[Marine Cpl]

9mm is a puny pea shooter, at least for the purposes of wilderness defense. It can and has worked in the past against certain predators, but then again so has .22lr. There is a huge difference between what is possible and what is optimal. And there is absolutely nothing wrong with acknowledging 9mm's shortcomings, because there are benefits as well (lower recoil, more rounds, lower cost).

I hardly ever walk armed in black bear country. A pocket folder is the most that I feel obligated to carry. If I were to carry a 9mm would certainly be better than nothing, but ultimately .40s&w, 10mm and .357 magnum are much better suited for such applications. Guides have dumped 6 cylinders of .357 magnum into angry black bears with no immediate results (albeit the shot placement was likely lousy)...9mm requires the utmost in shot placement to be effective, and even then it may not always be effective (right away).

Brown bear country: no way I'd bother with a 9mm...just not worth the risk.

I don't mind people who prefer to use their daily CCW cartridge for impromptu predator defense, but I do have a problem with people preaching that 9mm and the like are just as effective as the bigger bear-stoppers (.357 magnum, 10mm, .44 magnum) and therefore those bigger cartridges are unwarranted.

That’s your opinion and it will never change. I will go with cold hard facts and the facts are that it has stopped and killed bear numerous times in the past. Numerous times. Not like a .22lr in the ear in the right spot or a lucky shot in the perfect spot but rather center mast with hard cast bullets reaching vital organs.

You can say what you want. Just like you say that most guns can’t handle +P or +P+ or that their isn’t a SAMMI standard for +P.

There is a difference between hunting black bear and black bear defense and I never once said that 9mm will replace bigger calibers. The post you just quoted me on said the exact opposite.

 

[Upstate43]

That’s your opinion and it will never change. I will go with cold hard facts and the facts are that it has stopped and killed bear numerous times in the past. Numerous times. Not like a .22lr in the ear in the right spot or a lucky shot in the perfect spot but rather center mast with hard cast bullets reaching vital organs.

Lol...so it's a "cold hard fact" that 9mm can handle bears but that 22lr can't? I think you're doing a good job of further illustrating my point: a lot of pistol cartridges are capable of killing bear, only a few are optimal for such purposes. 9mm isn't one of them.

There aren't as many cases of 9mm being used as you liked to think.

You can say what you want. Just like you say that most guns can’t handle +P or +P+ or that their isn’t a SAMMI standard for +P.

There is a SAAMI standard for +P 9mm...it's not the same as the SAAMI standard for regular 9mm. Most pistols are not rated for a steady diet of +P 9mm...that's also a cold hard fact, but I doubt that you're going to take the time to do the reading on that.

There is a difference between hunting black bear and black bear defense and I never once said that 9mm will replace bigger calibers. The post you just quoted me on said the exact opposite.

Black bear defense is an over-hyped topic, especially here in the northeast. Carry what you want, or don't carry at all...whatever suits your preference. Black bears rarely attack humans, but a 9mm is certainly better than nothing. For people who proactively seek out black bears (hunters, wounded game trackers, game wardens), 9mm is NOT a preferred cartridge....that it isnt a cold hard fact, but it is considered conventional wisdom.

 

[Marine Cpl]

Lol...so it's a "cold hard fact" that 9mm can handle bears but that 22lr can't? I think you're doing a good job of further illustrating my point: a lot of pistol cartridges are capable of killing bear, only a few are optimal for such purposes. 9mm isn't one of them.

There aren't as many cases of 9mm being used as you liked to think.



There is a SAAMI standard for +P 9mm...it's not the same as the SAAMI standard for regular 9mm. Most pistols are not rated for a steady diet of +P 9mm...that's also a cold hard fact, but I doubt that you're going to take the time to do the reading on that.



Black bear defense is an over-hyped topic, especially here in the northeast. Carry what you want, or don't carry at all...whatever suits your preference. Black bears rarely attack humans, but a 9mm is certainly better than nothing. For people who proactively seek out black bears (hunters, wounded game trackers, game wardens), 9mm is NOT a preferred cartridge....that it isnt a cold hard fact, but it is considered conventional wisdom.

Wrong about the .22lr. Never said that it cannot. Wrong on the SAMMI. Almost every new pistol can. Just the fact that you don’t know that speaks volumes. And wrong on the black bear hunting . I never said that it was a hunting cartridge. I made that clear but it seems like you pick and choose what you want to and then write a lengthy post.