AR Kits

[MilesTeg]

I have a buddy that wants me to help him build an AR. I've built a few before so no worries on the actual build. He has no interest in piecing every part out and would rather buy a kit. I haven't been in the market for a kit gun in a while and have no clue what's out there. He's looking for a M4 style but I don't think that's firm. So if anyone knows or any good kits out there the input would be appreciated.

 

[NY Leatherneck]

IMO...Palmetto State Armory has a wide variety of AR kits at good prices.

 

[MilesTeg]

That was the first one that came to mind. I just didn't know the quality or if there were other good choices.

 

[gun_slinger_boy]

Yeah PSA always has deals going on. Buy an assembled upper, assembled lower, BCG/CH and you're good to go. Or buy the whole kit and a receiver. I built this for about 7 C notes.



If he's going for cost savings you can't beat this with a stick.

PTAC 16" Mid-length 5.56 NATO 1:7 Phosphate Rifle Kit - 7778970
PSA Blemished Safe/Fire Lower - 29659

ETA the above picture is a "blemished" receiver. Reading the reviews and not being able to find anything "blemished" on it I think it's just a ploy to sell more receivers lol. It's only a $10 difference but every little bit adds up.

 

[Frankly]

PSA is fine quality and if the preassembled parts are what he wants then by all means. Assembling a lower isn't that hard after watching a few YouTube videos, you only need a few odd tools like an AR wrench and brass hammer. Sometimes it is easier to buy the kit and swap out the grip and stock for what you want, then sell the leftover parts.

There is a nice used PSA upper and Leupold scope in the classifieds right now, all he needs is a lower and BCG and charging handle.

 

[meketrefe]

The kits are a hit and miss. Many times come with bottom shelf barrels and chambers.
I would buy this 3R barrel and their bolt and then build with parts kits around that.

16" 5.56 3R Socom barrel, 4150 CMV, Wylde chamber 5/8"

NiB 5.56 9310 alloy enhanced bolt

The RRA 2 stage NM trigger kit can be tuned to shoot like the most expensive triggers.

A few extra bucks will yield a far superior AR in every single way...

Whatever you do stay away from:
M4 style cut barrels: They serve no purpose.
1/2" muzzle threads: Accuracy life suffers.
Carbine porting: Also they serve no purpose other than messing things up.
Chrome lined barrels: A good chrome lined barrel might be ok but it is not the best finishing
for durability and normally does not help with accuracy. This is old technology.
A mid weight socom style profile mid porting nitrocarburized (melonite) is a better way to go.
Budget bolt groups from mixed manufacturers: Tipical situation with many kits, they are bought
bulk to meet the price point. Instead a higher quality bolt from the same maker gives better
results on average.

The internals are the heart of the AR. The reciever brands do not mean much as they are the shell as soon as they are up to spec. most times truing the upper receivers gives a lot more consistency in terms of accuracy.

PSA sell nice things but they also sell crap. Remember they do not manufacture anything, they are simply re-sellers of products from OEM manufactures.

 

[meketrefe]

btw... there is a clear explanation for every recommendation I made. Let me know if you need the details although
we covered this in other threads before. It is not just personal preference or anything like that, there are good reasons for it.

 

[MilesTeg]

The building of it is no worries I've done enough of them now that it's an over coffee project. If it was for myself I would be all for piecing it together out of the best parts. My buddy doesn't want to do the research for that sort of build. I'll ask if he wants me to do that for him, I would have to figure out how much he wants to spend to it right. I'm actually kind surprised there aren't more kits out there right now.

 

[Robin]

Miles, I googled AR kits and M4 kits and got a crapload of places that offer them in a wide variety of quality and completion.
Here are just two: AR-15 Complete Rifle Kit without 80% Lower, AR15 Complete no Lower | Daytona Tactical
Del-Ton, Inc. AR-15 16'' M4 Rifle Kit

There are many more, I've been toying with the idea myself, never hurts to expand ones range of interest and capabilities.
Robin

 

[ArmedCorgi]

Yeah Del-Ton still has kits. I had a Del-Ton mid-length upper and I had also bought a lower from them. They were both good quality.

 

[meketrefe]

Almost everyone have kits....
CBC Industries .223/5.56 KEYMOD Rifle Build Kit
Ar Upper For Sale | Ar Parts For Sale | Buy Ar-15 Parts - Surplus Ammo
AR-Stoner Carbine Kit Complete Upper Assembly AR-15 5.56x45mm NATO 1 9

There is no need for any research. It is a matter or getting something better than the typical bottom barrel OEM deal and w/o spending
much more.

 

[Gardnaaa]

Don't mark my words, but someone told me to stay away from the PTAC line by palmetto. All I have bought from them is a stripped lower that I bought as a "Belm" but there wasn't a scratch or anything on it. If your friend doesn't want to research the parts,You should just see what his budget is and build him a nice rifle. After all you are putting it together for him lol. Because it might cost him an extra hundred or two, but it will prob turn out nicer rather than buying a kit. Might mean more to him that his friend did it for him too lol

 

[meketrefe]

In my experience a difference of $100 to 200 dollars or even a tad more is nothing in the whole scheme of things.
In terms of decent internals and quality of materials it makes a huge difference in the experience one is going to get
from the carbine.
I mean, if one is going to be spraying paper diner plates with wholes call of duty style like some folks I see at the range,
anything would do I guess.
But there is something very rewarding about an accurate and reliable AR to really make it a dependeable weapon one
can get good with no matter what purpose of discipline.
I am just saying 100 and 200 bucks is nothing in the whole scheme of things considering cost of ammo, range fees, gasoline,
training, etc...

 

[Snappo]

Don't mark my words, but someone told me to stay away from the PTAC line by palmetto.

I put a Palmetto State nickel boron FA bolt in my AR build last year with good success. I also did the matching nickel boron barrel. Are there long term problems with their products? I feel like it's working well - my groups are tight and I have never had even one single FTF or FTE. For the lower I did Aero and it matched up perfectly to the upper with no issues whatsoever.

 

[Snappo]

In my experience a difference of $100 to 200 dollars or even a tad more is nothing in the whole scheme of things.
In terms of decent internals and quality of materials it makes a huge difference in the experience one is going to get
from the carbine.
I mean, if one is going to be spraying paper diner plates with wholes call of duty style like some folks I see at the range,
anything would do I guess.
But there is something very rewarding about an accurate and reliable AR to really make it a dependeable weapon one
can get good with no matter what purpose of discipline.
I am just saying 100 and 200 bucks is nothing in the whole scheme of things considering cost of ammo, range fees, gasoline,
training, etc...

That's true - $200 is a nice steak dinner for 2 in Utica with a mixed drink and desert. In my line of work, we used to call a few hundred bucks "pizza money". Meaning in the big scheme of things it was "big whoop".

 

[meketrefe]

Sometimes we talk about brands like they mean something but they don't.
I don't have anything against PSA, they sell some pretty good things but they also sell garbage like
countless others.
The reason is very simple. They do not manufacture anything nor they have the quality control process
for everything they sell.
Like many others they buy bulk from OEM manufacturers and get the best deals they can to meet the
price points. For the most part there is nothing wrong with OEM makers some might even make a
superior product just don't expect that to be for the possible lower price no matter who sells it and
what brand. A barrel maker like Douglas might make barrels for 7 different brands like Stoner that
is a brand MidwayUSA created. Same thing.
Remember a few years ago when Midway had to recall hundreds of Stoner bolts that were breaking
prematurely? Well it was their stoner brand but in reality it was whatever the supplier was for that
batch that messed up the heat treating process. Stoner mags are ASC mags. And this happens with so many other things.
The good thing is, being midway, they issued a recall right away and replaced all the bolts not questions
asked whether they were affected or not. That is customer service and midway does a superb job
at that.

Regarding Palmetto I am going to say what I have said many times before. They do not make anything
like many other brands. They are just resellers.
One day a friend I know from the club called me because he was having problems with a palmetto
AR built from one of their kits. I took the upper and quickly discovered the chamber had run out
and while it passed the headpsace the tenon was cut way too short and it was not safe to fire.

This is how the bulged cases looked like (case on the right)...

This compounded with the sometimes early extraction typical in M4 style tacticool
profile over-gassed uppers didn't make it a safe situation. Luckily he didn't have a case
failure and upon contacting PSA they replaced the barrel and bolt.

Other person might buy a PSA and get a nice chamber job and even some decent accuracy.

My point is, that while errors are not frequent, you need to understand that these brands
have no quality process and do not check everything because they do not manufacture anything
and do not have the means to make sure the hardness is the right one that while the headspace
is ok the tenon is ok and many other checks, some simple, and some not so simple.
If they did that they labor cost will impact the cost of the bottom shelf deals they put out
to meet the price point. The AR is so massively produced that it is both a blessing but also
a curse and why earlier I suggested some parts from specific manufactures that do inspect
the quality control.

Don't get me wrong. If you buy a Lothar Walter barrel chambered by LW it doesn't matter
where do you buy it from if it is Midway, Rainier, PSA or whoever you will get the same
quality barrels and chambers.

just don't hold your expectations too high with any "Brands" and "weekly deals" because
the brand means nothing unless you are ordering specific parts under designated specs.
Otherwise you will get whatever is available at the time manufacturer by whoever made
that bulk deal for the re-seller you are buying from.

Like many times I suggest things so, in my honest opinion and in good faith you can get
a better experience and w/o spending a lot more. And it is not like one needs a masters
degree in AR15 buying or anything. There are plenty of good makers. Also in certain parts
the qualities are not as critical as in other sections of the AR15. Also Mil-Spec is good but
also might mean an inferior product compared to other offerings using more modern
materials and similar price points. We could say mil spec is still ok but also it is arbitrary
and could be considered "old technology" and standards.

I always say if you like the AR go for a bit extra of accuracy and reliability. What is 200 bucks
more these days anyway.

Some AR builders do not want to compete with the kits price points. not because they could not do it but those are volume based revenue models and might give a lot of headaches. So quality vendors tend to concentrate in a tad better quality and have decent offerings that do not break the bank but for sure much better than most kits that as I said it can be a hit and miss situation.

Nobody needs Noveske to kill a deer! lol

 

[meketrefe]

That's true - $200 is a nice steak dinner for 2 in Utica with a mixed drink and desert. In my line of work, we used to call a few hundred bucks "pizza money". Meaning in the big scheme of things it was "big whoop".

I will never trade a nice steak specially a rib eye with a Rioja! lol.
But in the same context. The difference might be paid off by fiddling a better deal for 2K rounds of ammo.
Again, brands might mean something or nothing at all.

 

[Gardnaaa]

That's why I said don't mark my words. Everyone's experience will be different. But most of the time you get what you pay for and that's the truth. Someone had told me that the ptac is their lower quality line. I love the stripped lower I bought from them. It's on my favorite AR. And an extra couple of bucks can go a long way. Quality and performance wise.

 

[ArmedCorgi]

I can almost guarantee that the end user of this rifle, will get the itch and begin dumping a lot of money into upgrades. So while they say that they just want a rifle and they think that a basic build will be adequate, it won't and they'll end up spending just as much if not more later.

 

[Gardnaaa]

I can almost guarantee that the end user of this rifle, will get the itch and begin dumping a lot of money into upgrades. So while they say that they just want a rifle and they think that a basic build will be adequate, it won't and they'll end up spending just as much if not more later.

Exactly!!!! Couldn't have said it better. Why don't you talk to bulletguy. He could help you out

 

[Prominus]

If you PM me I can custom build you an upper just how you want it.

I always recommend starting with a barrel and going from there... Chrome Lined, Nitrated, Stainless,. Then decide if you want a carbine 16" or a rifle 20" or a longer range build 20-24".

From there you need to decide on free float handguard or standard pinned front sight. Then decide on type of handguard. M-lok, Keymod, Picatinny.

Then BCG and Charging handle. I always recommend a NIB BCG they cost $100 right now or a standard milspec chrome lined BCG $65.

Heres a sweet little 11.5" I just put together for someone using a Colt Heavy barrel and DD Omega 2.0 Drop in quad rail. Just waiting on the flash hider he ordered and it will be done.

 

[Frankly]

I respect Meketrefe's advice but like anything else, figure out what the needs are. A cheap $500 SHTF plinker that will never see more than a few hundred rounds through it won't need the highest quality parts but it does need to be safe and reliable.

Per his recommendations and off the top of my head, roughly the least you could build his proper upper would be:

Mid-length barrel, 5/8 thread, per above.... I think the cheapest you can find something like that is maybe $269 from Black Hole or ?
Name brand gas block and gas tube $75+
Decent BCG $80 on sale
Aero forged Upper $80 on sale
Basic free float M-Lok hand guard $100 (UTG or something similar)
Some sort of muzzle device or treatment $5 and likely much more.
Rail too-dads and geehaws - sky is the limit, same for sights and optics.

So that's a minimum of $610 and likely more for a good quality upper with a decent barrel.

While serviceable PSA uppers and other generics are half that. There aren't that many people getting killed by explosive failures on PSA rifles. For some it's worth taking a risk and hoping to get a nice one, and going after them for warranty service if it isn't.

I'm not trying to discredit his advice, I've ended up with something similar to his recommendations and every time I've attempted to build a cheap bargain rifle the final cost creeps up to mid-range. Especially if I consider the loss I take when I try to sell the old parts when I should have bought higher end to begin with. I should be a government contractor because I always blow my budget!

If it helps with your rationalization process, spending $600-$700 for a quality barrel and nicer upper is a bargain compared to something like a JP or Noveske upper that costs more than double. If you have a good barrel and bolt then there is nothing inherently less accurate about your $6-700 build upper than a famous name brand.

 

[Snappo]

Sometimes we talk about brands like they mean something but they don't.
I don't have anything against PSA, they sell some pretty good things but they also sell garbage like
countless others.
The reason is very simple. They do not manufacture anything nor they have the quality control process
for everything they sell.
Like many others they buy bulk from OEM manufacturers and get the best deals they can to meet the
price points. For the most part there is nothing wrong with OEM makers some might even make a
superior product just don't expect that to be for the possible lower price no matter who sells it and
what brand. A barrel maker like Douglas might make barrels for 7 different brands like Stoner that
is a brand MidwayUSA created. Same thing.
Remember a few years ago when Midway had to recall hundreds of Stoner bolts that were breaking
prematurely? Well it was their stoner brand but in reality it was whatever the supplier was for that
batch that messed up the heat treating process. Stoner mags are ASC mags. And this happens with so many other things.
The good thing is, being midway, they issued a recall right away and replaced all the bolts not questions
asked whether they were affected or not. That is customer service and midway does a superb job
at that.

Regarding Palmetto I am going to say what I have said many times before. They do not make anything
like many other brands. They are just resellers.
One day a friend I know from the club called me because he was having problems with a palmetto
AR built from one of their kits. I took the upper and quickly discovered the chamber had run out
and while it passed the headpsace the tenon was cut way too short and it was not safe to fire.

This is how the bulged cases looked like (case on the right)...

This compounded with the sometimes early extraction typical in M4 style tacticool
profile over-gassed uppers didn't make it a safe situation. Luckily he didn't have a case
failure and upon contacting PSA they replaced the barrel and bolt.

Other person might buy a PSA and get a nice chamber job and even some decent accuracy.

My point is, that while errors are not frequent, you need to understand that these brands
have no quality process and do not check everything because they do not manufacture anything
and do not have the means to make sure the hardness is the right one that while the headspace
is ok the tenon is ok and many other checks, some simple, and some not so simple.
If they did that they labor cost will impact the cost of the bottom shelf deals they put out
to meet the price point. The AR is so massively produced that it is both a blessing but also
a curse and why earlier I suggested some parts from specific manufactures that do inspect
the quality control.

Don't get me wrong. If you buy a Lothar Walter barrel chambered by LW it doesn't matter
where do you buy it from if it is Midway, Rainier, PSA or whoever you will get the same
quality barrels and chambers.

just don't hold your expectations too high with any "Brands" and "weekly deals" because
the brand means nothing unless you are ordering specific parts under designated specs.
Otherwise you will get whatever is available at the time manufacturer by whoever made
that bulk deal for the re-seller you are buying from.

Like many times I suggest things so, in my honest opinion and in good faith you can get
a better experience and w/o spending a lot more. And it is not like one needs a masters
degree in AR15 buying or anything. There are plenty of good makers. Also in certain parts
the qualities are not as critical as in other sections of the AR15. Also Mil-Spec is good but
also might mean an inferior product compared to other offerings using more modern
materials and similar price points. We could say mil spec is still ok but also it is arbitrary
and could be considered "old technology" and standards.

I always say if you like the AR go for a bit extra of accuracy and reliability. What is 200 bucks
more these days anyway.

Some AR builders do not want to compete with the kits price points. not because they could not do it but those are volume based revenue models and might give a lot of headaches. So quality vendors tend to concentrate in a tad better quality and have decent offerings that do not break the bank but for sure much better than most kits that as I said it can be a hit and miss situation.

Nobody needs Noveske to kill a deer! lol

I wish I knew that about PSA last fall. My local gun store had recommended the stainless steel Wylde from PSA with the nickel boron FA bolt. I guess if at some point I find I am not getting the accuracy I desire, I should be able to just swap out for a different barrel and leave the rest the same.

 

[freddy]

btw... there is a clear explanation for every recommendation I made. Let me know if you need the details although
we covered this in other threads before. It is not just personal preference or anything like that, there are good reasons for it.

Meketrefe I recognize this is contrary to your advice, but please, if you had to pick a complete AR kit (16" barrel) which one would provide:
A. the absolute best reliability
B. MOA accuracy (sub-MOA nice but not mandatory)
C. lowest price as as long as A and B are met

If the answer is a kit that costs $500, or $1000, or $1500, then so be it.

At the very least suggest an assembled upper that meets these criteria.

@Bullet Guy would you care to respond to this same question too?

 

[meketrefe]

Meketrefe please, is there a complete kit you can recommend that provides:
A. the absolute best reliability
B. MOA accuracy (sub-MOA not mandatory)
C. Lowest price as long as A and B are met

Freddy,
I am not a super expert in brands and what is available. The bullet guy is one of the local guys who is up to date.
But what I know is from first hand and the issues I experienced are also from first hand experience and not what
you read in the interwebs here and there.
Your questions can be answered but not with specific brands parts or prices but based on a set of directives that can
be met even with mid budget builds w/o going crazy spending.
What is critical for the AR to be both reliable and accurate is not a huge difference in budget that is a decent
barrel, bolt and trigger group. A nice gas block too w/o over spending in fancy adjustable or self regulated systems.
That is the beating heart of the AR15's impingement system and if one is wise can put together something mid budget
that beats anything mil-spec or not and even some very expensive ones that dump the money where is not needed
like expensive rails, stocks and other chit. Brands might mean something but in many parts have zero impact in the
AR and might be just a shell or wrapper.

This is not a new subject. I wish we had a wiki so one could easily find relevant discussions and links posted before but
between the search not being that great and people coming and going from forum to forum all gets lost somehow.

I have put together a fair number of rifles and uppers over the years. Other members from here and the other
now orphan forums even more. But I guess the way I have learned the most have been but setting up specialty
uppers and rifles and chambering wildcats myself and testing stuff with close observation. I think failures sometimes
are bad but they are good too because one might learn something about what not to do next time.

Like Jack the Stripper would say, lets do one part at the time. lol

Barrel: The reason I try to stay away from the kits barrels is because they are manufactured to meet the below
$100 point unless otherwise specified. This doesn't mean they always have to be bad barrels but the only way
to get a decent barrel is to have a major order (midway might order 1000 at the time) and have whatever
the manufacturer to work precisely to your specs ideally if they have done it before. Normally the barrels will
be safe but in cases of small orders there will be a few misses. Not that they will not be safe but not good
and sometimes not accurate.
The biggest issue is that the demand dictates that the tacticool M4 style cut on the barrels that actually makes
them more costly and worse in terms of reliability and accuracy potential.
1/2 threads should have never existed. Carbine ported barrels are not needed nor the forward cuts for the
grenade launcher. A simple straight socom profile with a mid size port is much better. It runs the bolt at
lower pressure and cooler. Also the minor diameter ahead of the gas block area has been the point of failure
when pushed to the limits. We have seen this in torture tests where the gas block and tube hold yet the M4 style barrel
fails. Even if the barrel doesn't fail the point of burning the barrel (Ruined) can happen much sooner and accuracy
will never be the same.
Again it doesn't mean M4 tacticool popular in kits have to be bad but there are better choices by design.
Regaraind the black hole I had mixed reults. One barrel is good the next a POS even chambered off center
that is ruined and then their service sucks. Not bad people, they just don't have the means and process to
follow through.
Everyone can make a mistake the issue is, is a mistake something you will see very rarely and how they
take care of it. Also making a better choice in paper most likely leads to better results in real life vs.
accepting whatever they put in the bulk kit deal.

I mean a barrel is not a huge thing if one has to toss a $100 dollar barrel in the trash big deal right?
But at the same time if one looks at what some middle of the road barrels give you ($180 to $250) and
the accuracy and experience that goes with it then what is the point of fiddling with barrels and rezero
the rifle, etc...

People say oh just SHTF so what this means? ....for some might mean put together the possibly best reliable
gun for the money. Used to be the AK and saiga not anymore. Plus a good AR is as reliable and even have
more life than the AK much easier to serivce in long term w/o complex tools and metal working machinery.

The directives for me are simple:
- Ideally I am going for a good quality stainless or a hard Chromoly nitrocarburized (melonited).
- Stay away from M4 tacticool barrels. Ideally a simple socom, mid to light weight.
- Stay away from pencil barrels unless is for a ranch rifle. light truck / backpacking gun for low rate of fire.
- I might use semi heavy barrels for match shooting including competition but also long range / specialty use.
- I like 5R and 3R barrels or polygonal but stay away from the Blackhole.
- Stay away from 1/2" threads. If the deal is good and they are there is fine I guess but in a good barrel where
I want to extend the accuracy life I would avoid them and go with the 5/8x24 standard. The reason is not
because the high pressure rounds induce swelling but many teams the barrels are not properly stressed relieved
and the metal swells over time specially with such small section of 1/2" in a bore of 22 caliber.
You will not see many good 338 LM rifles installing 5/8 threads for the same reason. Wall thickness is key. So what
applies to high end systems it also applies to lower budget guns if you want to preserve accuracy potential.
- Avoid the carbine porting. There is no need for it. The AR was never intended to run with that kind of gas port
and why this is reason for some headaches and zero benefits. ...I guess other than the M4 because of the darn
barrel and grenade launcher bracket. Something civilians do not need.

There are several outlets selling well priced barrels a bit a step up from the bottom shelf kit deals.
Buying a noveske or JP will not give you any benefits over other brands costing 1/2 of that.
One can order prime barrels from super good makers that have already prechambered for AR like lothar
walther deals.
I love krieger but those are expensive so I have used AR15performance for serveral builds and they are
very well cut and chambered.
AR15performance also has bolts as good or better than the JP that come matched to the chamber and
they are cheaper too.
Young manufacturing also makes great bolts in superior materials so one doesn't have to spend in JP or
noveske or whoever to get the same or better.
At some point young made the bolts for JP and then they divorced or so they say but perhaps they still
make it for them and all JP does is to put a logo and double the price. This happens a lot.
I knot the ARP bolts to be good because I used them in all sort of calibers including wildcats.
the 7.62x39 is the strongest they have and I have used this for the 35 gunner including some wicked loads
and have yet to see a lug braking. If you get a model1 bolt this will last me 200 rounds or less depending
how hot I reload.

So I guess there is no straight answer but people here can give some better recommendations for not a lot
more money for just those critical parts.

Again I don't see anything wrong with people looking for the cheapest possible kit but in my experience
people end up happier with something potentially more reliable and more accurate that overtime gives
more satisfactions actually spending less bullets. I always say if you like to pull the trigger like there is no
end then there are better and cheaper choices not discarding airguns, airsoft and video games! lol.

To gauge this in a very simplistic manner lets say one spends $200 more on the key elements. If the
accuracy life expectancy is 10K rounds before any major maintenance that includes replacing the barrel
and lets say one can overtime get those 10,000 rounds bought or reloaded for $300/1000 that is $3000
then $200 dollars is not even 10% of the total budget w/o couinting range fees, and other parts for possibly
a much better experience. Who knows the cheap equipment might not make it to the 10k rounds w/o
breakages and might cost more and even a good barrel might do a few extra thousand runds after recrowning
or some other maintenance.

hard to say but more times than not is an easy decision in favor of a bit extra on the key components.

Like I said a RRA 2 stage trigger can work like a geissele. Still sold by white oak and the fulton armery for national match
and it can be tuned to perfection just conditioning the original springs.

for a hand guard any cheap tube will do and for rails a UTG pro wil work the same or even better than the
most expensive Troy or La Rue rails. I have been there done that.

....

Or give the bullet guy a shout and he will set you up straight. I do my own stuff but heard from others he is
the man.

 

[meketrefe]

I wish I knew that about PSA last fall. My local gun store had recommended the stainless steel Wylde from PSA with the nickel boron FA bolt. I guess if at some point I find I am not getting the accuracy I desire, I should be able to just swap out for a different barrel and leave the rest the same.

If the chamber is right try re-crowning and see if the harmonics also change.
Also finding a slightly larger bolt for a tighter chamber might not be a bad idea.
I guess you have tried different ammo too so see if you can change the tune of the barrel.
Truing the receiver?
..I am guessing..

 

[freddy]

Freddy,
I am not a super expert in brands and what is available. The bullet guy is one of the local guys who is up to date.
But what I know is from first hand and the issues I experienced are also from first hand experience and not what
you read in the interwebs here and there.
Your questions can be answered but not with specific brands parts or prices but based on a set of directives that can
be met even with mid budget builds w/o going crazy spending.
What is critical for the AR to be both reliable and accurate is not a huge difference in budget that is a decent
barrel, bolt and trigger group. A nice gas block too w/o over spending in fancy adjustable or self regulated systems.
That is the beating heart of the AR15's impingement system and if one is wise can put together something mid budget
that beats anything mil-spec or not and even some very expensive ones that dump the money where is not needed
like expensive rails, stocks and other chit. Brands might mean something but in many parts have zero impact in the
AR and might be just a shell or wrapper.

This is not a new subject. I wish we had a wiki so one could easily find relevant discussions and links posted before but
between the search not being that great and people coming and going from forum to forum all gets lost somehow.

I have put together a fair number of rifles and uppers over the years. Other members from here and the other
now orphan forums even more. But I guess the way I have learned the most have been but setting up specialty
uppers and rifles and chambering wildcats myself and testing stuff with close observation. I think failures sometimes
are bad but they are good too because one might learn something about what not to do next time.

Like Jack the Stripper would say, lets do one part at the time. lol

Barrel: The reason I try to stay away from the kits barrels is because they are manufactured to meet the below
$100 point unless otherwise specified. This doesn't mean they always have to be bad barrels but the only way
to get a decent barrel is to have a major order (midway might order 1000 at the time) and have whatever
the manufacturer to work precisely to your specs ideally if they have done it before. Normally the barrels will
be safe but in cases of small orders there will be a few misses. Not that they will not be safe but not good
and sometimes not accurate.
The biggest issue is that the demand dictates that the tacticool M4 style cut on the barrels that actually makes
them more costly and worse in terms of reliability and accuracy potential.
1/2 threads should have never existed. Carbine ported barrels are not needed nor the forward cuts for the
grenade launcher. A simple straight socom profile with a mid size port is much better. It runs the bolt at
lower pressure and cooler. Also the minor diameter ahead of the gas block area has been the point of failure
when pushed to the limits. We have seen this in torture tests where the gas block and tube hold yet the M4 style barrel
fails. Even if the barrel doesn't fail the point of burning the barrel (Ruined) can happen much sooner and accuracy
will never be the same.
Again it doesn't mean M4 tacticool popular in kits have to be bad but there are better choices by design.
Regaraind the black hole I had mixed reults. One barrel is good the next a POS even chambered off center
that is ruined and then their service sucks. Not bad people, they just don't have the means and process to
follow through.
Everyone can make a mistake the issue is, is a mistake something you will see very rarely and how they
take care of it. Also making a better choice in paper most likely leads to better results in real life vs.
accepting whatever they put in the bulk kit deal.

I mean a barrel is not a huge thing if one has to toss a $100 dollar barrel in the trash big deal right?
But at the same time if one looks at what some middle of the road barrels give you ($180 to $250) and
the accuracy and experience that goes with it then what is the point of fiddling with barrels and rezero
the rifle, etc...

People say oh just SHTF so what this means? ....for some might mean put together the possibly best reliable
gun for the money. Used to be the AK and saiga not anymore. Plus a good AR is as reliable and even have
more life than the AK much easier to serivce in long term w/o complex tools and metal working machinery.

The directives for me are simple:
- Ideally I am going for a good quality stainless or a hard Chromoly nitrocarburized (melonited).
- Stay away from M4 tacticool barrels. Ideally a simple socom, mid to light weight.
- Stay away from pencil barrels unless is for a ranch rifle. light truck / backpacking gun for low rate of fire.
- I might use semi heavy barrels for match shooting including competition but also long range / specialty use.
- I like 5R and 3R barrels or polygonal but stay away from the Blackhole.
- Stay away from 1/2" threads. If the deal is good and they are there is fine I guess but in a good barrel where
I want to extend the accuracy life I would avoid them and go with the 5/8x24 standard. The reason is not
because the high pressure rounds induce swelling but many teams the barrels are not properly stressed relieved
and the metal swells over time specially with such small section of 1/2" in a bore of 22 caliber.
You will not see many good 338 LM rifles installing 5/8 threads for the same reason. Wall thickness is key. So what
applies to high end systems it also applies to lower budget guns if you want to preserve accuracy potential.
- Avoid the carbine porting. There is no need for it. The AR was never intended to run with that kind of gas port
and why this is reason for some headaches and zero benefits. ...I guess other than the M4 because of the darn
barrel and grenade launcher bracket. Something civilians do not need.

There are several outlets selling well priced barrels a bit a step up from the bottom shelf kit deals.
Buying a noveske or JP will not give you any benefits over other brands costing 1/2 of that.
One can order prime barrels from super good makers that have already prechambered for AR like lothar
walther deals.
I love krieger but those are expensive so I have used AR15performance for serveral builds and they are
very well cut and chambered.
AR15performance also has bolts as good or better than the JP that come matched to the chamber and
they are cheaper too.
Young manufacturing also makes great bolts in superior materials so one doesn't have to spend in JP or
noveske or whoever to get the same or better.
At some point young made the bolts for JP and then they divorced or so they say but perhaps they still
make it for them and all JP does is to put a logo and double the price. This happens a lot.
I knot the ARP bolts to be good because I used them in all sort of calibers including wildcats.
the 7.62x39 is the strongest they have and I have used this for the 35 gunner including some wicked loads
and have yet to see a lug braking. If you get a model1 bolt this will last me 200 rounds or less depending
how hot I reload.

So I guess there is no straight answer but people here can give some better recommendations for not a lot
more money for just those critical parts.

Again I don't see anything wrong with people looking for the cheapest possible kit but in my experience
people end up happier with something potentially more reliable and more accurate that overtime gives
more satisfactions actually spending less bullets. I always say if you like to pull the trigger like there is no
end then there are better and cheaper choices not discarding airguns, airsoft and video games! lol.

To gauge this in a very simplistic manner lets say one spends $200 more on the key elements. If the
accuracy life expectancy is 10K rounds before any major maintenance that includes replacing the barrel
and lets say one can overtime get those 10,000 rounds bought or reloaded for $300/1000 that is $3000
then $200 dollars is not even 10% of the total budget w/o couinting range fees, and other parts for possibly
a much better experience. Who knows the cheap equipment might not make it to the 10k rounds w/o
breakages and might cost more and even a good barrel might do a few extra thousand runds after recrowning
or some other maintenance.

hard to say but more times than not is an easy decision in favor of a bit extra on the key components.

Like I said a RRA 2 stage trigger can work like a geissele. Still sold by white oak and the fulton armery for national match
and it can be tuned to perfection just conditioning the original springs.

for a hand guard any cheap tube will do and for rails a UTG pro wil work the same or even better than the
most expensive Troy or La Rue rails. I have been there done that.

....

Or give the bullet guy a shout and he will set you up straight. I do my own stuff but heard from others he is
the man.

Very good! Thank you.

 

[Gardnaaa]

I just advised my buddy to build his first AR. He was going to buy a complete NY compliant, ugly neutered one it and it was like 1k. He had this great idea to buy this gun and then he was going to change things out to his liking. So I advised him, at that point you change out the hamdguard, the sights, the trigger, and other stuff your looking at least $300-500 dollars. If you build one yourself you can get everything from the start for maybe the same price or a tad bit more for what YOU ACTUALLY WANT 100%. At that point it's worth building. Plus in my mind for the sentimental value. I built my first AR pretty cheap, since my job was garbage at the time. I got a free 20 inch barrel from a friend and went to town. Cost me like $650-750. It's a great gun and shoots like a charm, but I don't shoot it much since I built a way nicer one the second time around. And even though it's not my favorite, I'm attached to it because it's my first build. I'd never sell it. I'll prob add things to it eventually when I run out of other guns to buy, but I'm happy with it. And now my friend loves his gun to death and is happy he got the expierence. He did all spikes, aero and magpul. Great looking gun. If you wait I'm sure they will have Memorial Day sales, and there is always 4th of July sales online. Primaryarms has always been great. I have a Troy complete upper with M-lok from there and it's a beast. To each his own. Good luck.

 

[MilesTeg]

Thanks everyone for their input. I have passed along the concerns about the quality of some of the rifle kits. He's a gun guy but this is his first venture in the AR world and doesn't really know what he wants and doesn't want. It seems like the easy of a kit is where he wants to be, but he hasn't purchased anything yet. I might be able to convince him to buy a completed upper and have him pick out a stock and I will pick the rest of the lower components. All of this talk makes my want to start another build. Sadly until the new house is built I don't see a build in my future.

 

[meketrefe]

No problem man. Save for the house, you cannot live inside a rifle!