I usually agree with Trump, but definitely not on this
- Thread starter Arjuna
- Start date
Blimey
.450/400 Nitro Ex
CAF is bullshat.
S
stuck in ny
Guest
See why I never trusted Trump? He's all about shock and awe not the constitution.
-police should have unlimited power!
-only those 7 are evil, Saudi Arabia and Turkey are allies!
Trump lives in a neocon delusion.
"Hey, Mr. tangerine man play a song for me..."
-police should have unlimited power!
-only those 7 are evil, Saudi Arabia and Turkey are allies!
Trump lives in a neocon delusion.
"Hey, Mr. tangerine man play a song for me..."
spat
.950 JDJ
Trump is far from perfect, but hes the best we've had in a long time.
So far, how has he not respected the Constitution and the rule of law/
As for the "civil asset forfeiture", I hope he uses it to the extreme! I love it. Go ahead, quote the Forth Amendment.
Make sure, before you hate on this program, that you understand the program.
But, like most things that deal with the Justice System, the Court System and Law Enforcement, most have no clue what they speak of.
spat
.950 JDJ
Civil forfeiture: letting the cops steal more than the criminals.
Which part of "innocent until proven guilty" don't you get ?
If we can dispense with due process for what amounts to a fine, why not for incarceration, or execution too ? I am sure it would make your job much easier, and crime would certainly go way down. I'm not all that keen on turning the US into Stalinist Russia, or N Korea though..
Okay, so you don't know or understand the way Civil Forfeiture works.
Yep, the coppers are stealing it. That must be it.
Yeah, and Trump is a Nazi. All Trump Supporters are racists and Fascists.
Yep, the coppers are stealing it. That must be it.
Yeah, and Trump is a Nazi. All Trump Supporters are racists and Fascists.
spat
.950 JDJ
You take stuff from people with no charges being filed, let alone a conviction at trial, and then use it to enrich your department. So, yea, you're stealing it. It's not like you total it up at the end and issue a refund to the taxpayers. You (as a department, not individual officers) literally take it and keep it for yourselves.
spat
.950 JDJ
The program as your department uses it, no, not a clue. Others are much worse, i am sure. You seem to he ignoring the one defining charastic of CAF, and that is taking private property without a conviction. If you can't convict, you have no right to confiscate anything.
A bit of education for us here in NY State...
New York State Asset Forfeiture
Under New York State law, District Attorneys can forfeit “proceeds” of crime and “instrumentalities” of crime. However, in New York, state prosecutors cannot forfeit real property, except in certain drug cases. That means that they are relatively powerless to go after your home. At the very least, it is enormously difficult for state prosecutors to do so and the law provides a weapon in your asset forfeiture attorney’s or seizure defense lawyer’s arsenal in defense of such an attempt.
The term “proceeds” refers to ill-gotten gains and can be cash from a crime, bank accounts, real property (land), and personal property (everything else, including jewelry, stocks, vehicles, electronics, and clothing). Property that is an instrumentality of crime, in the New York State lingo, or that facilitates a crime, in the Federal lingo, is basically the same thing: anything that makes the crime easier to commit. This could also include vehicles, real estate, currency, or other property.
Currently, other than in certain drug and organized crime cases, New York State has no real mechanism for criminal forfeiture. As part of a New York State criminal case and except in certain circumstances, the only way the prosecutor can demand forfeiture is by attaching a forfeiture stipulation as a condition of a plea offer and, even in those circumstances, the District Attorney receives forfeiture only in exchange for agreeing not to file a civil lawsuit pursuant to CPLR 13-A. Because there is generally no criminal forfeiture, Assistant District Attorneys are instead required to file a separate, civil, lawsuit against criminal defendants who do not take a plea. In the case, for example, of a $10,000 seizure from a drug dealer, if there is no negotiated disposition to the criminal case – which could include a stipulation agreeing to a forfeiture in lieu of a civil action – the prosecution might choose not to use scarce resources on a civil lawsuit. Furthermore, a District Attorney’s office cannot forfeit your assets if you have been charged with a misdemeanor, and they cannot seize your real property if you use that property to commit a crime.
New York State Asset Forfeiture
Under New York State law, District Attorneys can forfeit “proceeds” of crime and “instrumentalities” of crime. However, in New York, state prosecutors cannot forfeit real property, except in certain drug cases. That means that they are relatively powerless to go after your home. At the very least, it is enormously difficult for state prosecutors to do so and the law provides a weapon in your asset forfeiture attorney’s or seizure defense lawyer’s arsenal in defense of such an attempt.
The term “proceeds” refers to ill-gotten gains and can be cash from a crime, bank accounts, real property (land), and personal property (everything else, including jewelry, stocks, vehicles, electronics, and clothing). Property that is an instrumentality of crime, in the New York State lingo, or that facilitates a crime, in the Federal lingo, is basically the same thing: anything that makes the crime easier to commit. This could also include vehicles, real estate, currency, or other property.
Currently, other than in certain drug and organized crime cases, New York State has no real mechanism for criminal forfeiture. As part of a New York State criminal case and except in certain circumstances, the only way the prosecutor can demand forfeiture is by attaching a forfeiture stipulation as a condition of a plea offer and, even in those circumstances, the District Attorney receives forfeiture only in exchange for agreeing not to file a civil lawsuit pursuant to CPLR 13-A. Because there is generally no criminal forfeiture, Assistant District Attorneys are instead required to file a separate, civil, lawsuit against criminal defendants who do not take a plea. In the case, for example, of a $10,000 seizure from a drug dealer, if there is no negotiated disposition to the criminal case – which could include a stipulation agreeing to a forfeiture in lieu of a civil action – the prosecution might choose not to use scarce resources on a civil lawsuit. Furthermore, a District Attorney’s office cannot forfeit your assets if you have been charged with a misdemeanor, and they cannot seize your real property if you use that property to commit a crime.
spat
.950 JDJ
NY forfeiture is not all forfeiture. Other states are far more abusive. You are making the popular "none of the cops I know abuse that, so it doesn't happen" fallacy. We need protection from the bad actors, not the good ones.
What's wrong with "no conviction, give it back" ?
I live, work and I play in NY, NY law is what I am concerned with.
As for the no conviction, give it back; when the courts become perfect, then I will agree with it.
GUNSICK
6.5 Creedmoor
Hillary never would have tolerated this type of thing.
spat
.950 JDJ
Your idea that we need to punish people even when the courts wrongly exhonerate them is why so many of us are wary of giving cops any more power than absolutely necessary. Congratulations, you have just made my case for me.
Yep, they do. In fact, around here they parade the idiotic fact on their cars they steal.
"This vehicle stolen from a bad person."
So, with that fact, please enlighten us as to how that doesn't happen?
Saltwater60
20×102mm Vulcan
Hell not you can't take my shot without convicting me. Obama went to far the other way and made it so hard to confiscate property now he's making it to easy.
Hmmm....have to go with the CAF sucks group. From convicted felons, such as drug dealers? - bleed them dry!
Seizure before conviction? - no fucking way.
Got enough evidence to get warrants and a Grand Jury indictment? OK, freeze the assets in an escrow account, never into the government coffers. After conviction, seize and place in blind trusts to recompense the victims of crime.
Just peruse the pages of the Institute of Justice's monthly pamphlet and you'll see plenty of abuse of CAF.
I guess I just this differently than others.
That is more than okay with me, we really do not need to agree on every issue to get along.
As wrong as you all are, I will still continue to have conversations here on the forum as well as in person.
That is more than okay with me, we really do not need to agree on every issue to get along.
As wrong as you all are, I will still continue to have conversations here on the forum as well as in person.
Your openness and acceptance offends me. I'm now going to protest in front of a cop. Thanks!
spat
.950 JDJ
The fact that we can disagree so strongly and still have a civil discussion is what separates us from the animals, the 2 legged ones anyway.
If you ever find that you are in agreement with everyone you discuss something with, you are probably missing some important perspective on the issue.
bobbyd3
.40 S&W
Trump was just the lesser of two evils.
Hillary would strip us of one set of rights including 2a
Trump will strip us of another.
Both idiots, both shouldnt have been our choices but hes better than clinton
Hillary would strip us of one set of rights including 2a
Trump will strip us of another.
Both idiots, both shouldnt have been our choices but hes better than clinton
Jmac00
.475 A&M Magnum
I have no problem with CAF AFTER A CONVICTION, but taking property AND KEEPING IT, after a not guilty verdict is called STEALING.
The government can't be changing the definition of law just to suite them. If someone is not guilty, give them their stuff back, period
The government can't be changing the definition of law just to suite them. If someone is not guilty, give them their stuff back, period
ProgSpear
.338 Win Mag
Nailed my sentiments exactly. .GOV can invent a "due process", but that does not qualify it as justice. We need to reclaim what is right from what is the law, particularly when the law is unjust.
spat
.950 JDJ
CAF after a conviction is just a fine.
There are only 4 legal ways for a government to acquire someones property:
A fine - a penalty paid for commission of a crime (including violations here) after a conviction.
A fee - paid voluntarily in exchange for a service.
A tax - paid involuntary by an entire class of people in exchange for a service whether they individually use it or not.
Purchase (including eminent domain) - exchange for property of equal value.
Anything else is outright theft under color of law (and in some cases the above are as well).
Truebeliever
6.5 Creedmoor
I agree. If not found guilty, then you shouldn't have PROOF your innocence to get your stuff back.
Also, the punishment of it is often worse than the crime
