Supposedly the Supreme Court will over turn roe v wade

SomeSoldier

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Vapor

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Paimon_2A said:

It is funny when people like you can't read Scriptures properly or downplays the doctrines. Yes, believers are set free from the bondage of sin and men, but they becomes servants and slaves to Christ (their "freedom"). Did you not read 1 Cor 7:22-23 where believers are called slaves to Christ? Did you not read when Paul calls himself a servant in many occasions? Paul in Galatians 5:1 was speaking about believers being told they needed to be circumcised and obey the old law (what the whole book is about); Christ has you set free from that but that doesn't mean you are free to do whatever you want (you are still slaves to God, to Christ!). If you slaves to another being, be it man or deity, you are weak (whatever your theology would have you believe or pretend that "it is really good man").​

​

Romans 6:22​

But now that you have been set free from sin and have become slaves of God, the fruit you get leads to sanctification and its end, eternal life.​

1 Corinthians 7:22-23​

For he who was called in the Lord as a slave is a freedman of the Lord. Likewise he who was free when called is a slave of Christ. You were bought with a price; do not become slaves of men.​

Romans 1:1​


Paul, a slave of Christ Jesus, called as an apostle and singled out for God's good news
Click to expand...



And yet we will all be slaves to chemicals and hunger for the rest of our natural born lives.

We will do things to activate the reward centers of our brains and relase dopamine.

One might do cocaine.


One might habitually watch porn.




You will do specific sexual acts to release oxytocin to increase the pair bonding in your relationship.


You will eat to satiate the decline in blood sugar.

You will drink water.


We are all slaves to the protein gradients and concentration of neurotransmitters in our brains until we die.


Just weak flesh bags, with a lipid ghost in our skulls, floating around a very minor star in an insignificant solar system, in one of only thousands of galaxies.

A collection of cell that is 99.9% related to every other human being on this sad little Rock.

Soft flesh, fragile bone...


I'm merely making an illustration. I personally don't know if I give a single fuck about anyone's opinion on this message board. At least when it comes to life. I'm only enough to know that no one has life figured out.


Everyone is weak. Afraid of something. Running from something.

I personally don't give a fuck I guess. If praying at night helps answer some of the questions in life you can't answer...so be it.


If thinking your woke and superior becuase you don't belive in a diety makes you cope with insecurities or buffs you up to face to world, go for it.


And despite my illustration, I do think concisouness is unique. I also think that you have the right to voice what you think.


Do not think I wish to silence any of you.
 
SomeSoldier

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spat said:
The only real legal question is "when does a new person begin".

That needs a clear and unambiguous definition.

After that, no abortion specific laws are required. Normal laws against murder and exceptions for medical situations, etc are sufficient.

One minute there is just a woman, the next there are the equivalent of a pair of conjoined twins.

Same exact thing.

I don't think birth is the appropriate place to draw that line. I also don't think conception is appropriate. Most states draw the line at some milestone around 15 weeks, which is probably close to right IMHO.

You just need to be careful about the milestone you pick.

Viability outside the womb is popular, but it is subject to moving as medical technology progresses. In a couple decades that may be conception.

I think the definition of the beginning of life and the definition of the end of it should be mirror images. Probably related to brain activity.
Click to expand...

Preamble tells us.
 
prambo

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spat said:
Yes, a fertilized egg is undoubtedly alive.

As are the egg and supermarket before fertilization.

The question is when is a new person created.

Fertilization ? Implantation ? First heart beat ?

The problem with using the "genetically distinct" rationale from fertilization is that a human is about 50% by mass symbiotic organisms that aren't genetically derived from either parent, and they are absolutely 100% necessary for survival.

So, unless you think your gut biome is it's own person, and taking antibiotics that kill them by the trillions is immoral, that argument goes out the window.


So, maybe the right place to start is the question "what is a human". For the religious types the question is "when does a new soul form".

I think the only reasonable definition has to rely on brain activity. That is the real "person". Not even the physical brain, but the "software".
Click to expand...

(Guess most here will think I'm insane saying the following, but at my age, I've lost the need to fit in with anyone's conceptions other than my own.)

IMHO, comparing a bacteria, mold, or even a multi-cellular organism, like a tape worm, to higher life forms is not cogent to the argument.

If one seriously considers the longevity of sperm or an egg before they combine, it is not very long, whether support is given, or not, perhaps via rich rich tissue culture medium.

They have to be frozen to maintain efficacy...namely the ability to combine and, eventually, result in human life.

Essentially, by themselves, sperm or egg, are just bags of DNA, proteins, etc.

As a parasitologist, I've had to know a lot of different fields of biological science, because, basically, no one cares about parasites or the 3rd World people who are afflicted by them. So, I've done biochemistry, molecular biology, ultrastructure, immunology, in vitro culture, etc.

At one point, I did really consider...had to consider - When does human life really begin? Is there really a higher power that has imbued this weird mix of chemicals with the power to, sometimes, produce real, self-sustaining life?

When sperm and egg combine, even in a tissue culture environment, the process that begins, if one chooses to critically consider it, is for lack of a better word, miraculous.

From essentially the instant of joining an incredible process begins - whether it's a mouse, or a human.

Why?

One could offer a variety of theories as to what is happening...after all it is controlled by the very DNA that makes living creatures what they are.

That is, in and of itself, is miraculous.

The question then becomes - is this process grounded, somehow, in a life "force" that is, regardless of experimentation, impossible to fathom?

I think there is something, that I can only describe as the exquisite beauty of human life. The immune system, the brain, intricate intra- and extra-cellular controls, enzymes that function , at the atomic level, to make life - that boggle the mind in their elegance.

But mainly, I look at one thing - energy production.

How has life come to the point that ATP (adenosine triphosphate), the energy source for virtually all cellular processes, can be synthesized against the -7.3 cal/mole needed to make it?

The enzyme that makes ATP performs an energy miracle of sorts - it manipulates the thermodynamics of the very reaction itself.

ADP + phosphate -> ATP + H2O

The enzyme - the F0F1-ATPase - physically moves at the atomic level upon binding of ADP and inorganic phosphate, and excludes water from where the reaction takes place, thus overcoming the thermodynamic barrier to ATP synthesis.

It's a gorgeous enzyme that is, IMHO, miraculous.

So, that being said - do I believe this kind of elegance evolved from a puddle of slop on the surface of the early Earth?

No, IMHO, that is statistically almost impossible.

So, maybe to some astonishment, I say - there was "intelligent design" - the very "Hand of God", as it were.

All together, this is why I come down firmly against abortion once conception occurs.

Here's a video showing the F0F1-ATPase functioning...elegant, exquisite, and reversing a thermodynamic barrier.

It's elegance is simply amazing.

(You can call me insane if you want to...I don't really mind that.)

 
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spat

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prambo said:
(Guess most here will think I'm insane saying the following, but at my age, I've lost the need to fir in with anyone's conceptions other than my own.)

IMHO, comparing a bacteria, mold, or even a multi-cellular organism, like a tape worm, to higher life forms is, IMHO, not cogent to the argument.

If one seriously considers the longevity of sperm or an egg before they combine, it is not very long, whether support is given, or not, perhaps via rich rich tissue culture medium.

They have to be frozen to maintain efficacy...namely the ability to combine and, eventually, result in human life.

Essentially, by themselves, sperm or egg, are just bags of DNA, proteins, etc.

As a parasitologist, I've had to know a lot of different fields of biological science, because, basically, no one cares about parasites or the 3rd World people who are afflicted by them. So, I've done biochemistry, molecular biology, ultrastructure, immunology, in vitro culture, etc.

At one point, I did really consider...had to consider - When does human life really begin? Is there really a higher power that has imbued this weird mix of chemicals with the power to, sometimes, produce real, self-sustaining life?

When sperm and egg combine, even in a tissue culture environment, the process that begins, if one chooses to critically consider it, is for lack of a better word, miraculous.

From essentially the instant of joining an incredible process begins - whether it's a mouse, or a human.

Why?

One could offer a variety of theories as to what is happening...after all it is controlled by the very DNA that makes living creatures what they are.

That is, in and of itself, is miraculous.

The question then becomes - is this process grounded, somehow, in a life "force" that is, regardless of experimentation, impossible to fathom?

I think there is something, that I can only describe as the exquisite beauty of human life. The immune system, the brain, intricate intra- and extra-cellular controls, enzymes that function , at the atomic level, to make life - that boggle the mind in their elegance.

But mainly, I look at one thing - energy production.

How has life come to the point that ATP (adenosine triphosphate), the energy source for virtually all cellular processes, can be synthesized against the -7.3 cal/mole needed make it?

The enzyme that makes ATP performs an energy miracle of sorts - it manipulates the thermodynamics of the very reaction itself.

ADP + phosphate -> ATP + H2O

The enzyme - the F0F1-ATPase - physically moves at the atomic level upon binding of ADP and inorganic phosphate, and excludes water from where the reaction takes place, thus overcoming the thermodynamic barrier to ATP synthesis.

It's a gorgeous enzyme that is, IMHO, miraculous.

So, that being said - do I believe this kind of elegance evolved from a puddle of slop on the surface of the early Earth?

No, IMHO, that is statistically almost impossible.

So, maybe to some astonishment, I say - there was "intelligent design" - the very "Hand of God", as it were.

All together, this is why I come down firmly against abortion once conception occurs.

Here's a video showing the F0F1-ATPase functioning...elegant, exquisite, and reversing a thermodynamic barrier.

It's elegance is simply amazing.

(You can call me insane if you want to...I don't really mind that.)

Click to expand...
The whole process is absolutely amazing, but it doesn't make humans special. Essentially the same thing happens in every organism that reproduces sexually.

I think the only criteria that matters for "new person" is cognitive.

That's why "brain death" is the only real death that matters. Doctors can keep a shell of a body alive nearly indefinitely, breathing, heart beating, nutrients metabolizing, everything. But, if the brain activity shuts down you are unambiguously and irreversibly dead.

Every cell may still be kept alive for months, but the person is dead. The body is truly just a clump of cells at that point.

That is why I think brain activity is the only reasonable demarcation between a unique human life and just living tissue.
 
SonOfSun

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Saltwater60 said:
Interesting take on God and praying but I think you’ve been misinformed. Praying on your knees is because you are showing God respect and submitting to his rules. It’s your choice to do it or not do it and he won’t force you so weakness inst part of it. You may think that’s weakness, but it’s harder to do than anything else most have ever done.
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It's weak in the context of voluntarily submitting to some arbitrary set of rules because "god" said it was a good idea. How about living your life by your own set of rules and not taking orders from some invisible sky man. In all likelihood the rules came from the powers at the time to control people (how do we get the proles to listen to us... i know... tell those peasants God will be angry if they don't do XYZ ).

Some of the rules are dumb. For example, "Don't worship any other God than me" (summarized). What.... so God is all knowing and all powerful, but his fragile emotions can't handle you liking someone else? Sounds like a rule a jealous 12 year old girl might make. Get real, what a pansy. A pansy for the patsies.

I agree with things like "don't steal", but I don't need God to figure that out.

On topic; it's back to the states where it belongs. Each state will get to decide its own standards. In the end, nothing changes here, if you want an abortion, you can just go to where it's legal and get one.
 
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