The ballistics argument thread!
- Thread starter gun_slinger_boy
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Marine Cpl
.577 Tyrannosaur.
This is why.
1. The round is too slow for barrier penetration. From a carry pistol with a 3 inch barrel, it averages 700 to 750 fps compared to a 9mm that still goes about 1150 fps from the same sized barrel.
2. Recoil. From a carry pistol the .45 ACP's recoil is significantly larger than a 9mm. That hinders follow up shots.
3. Capacity. From a carry pistol you are looking at 6 rounds. From the same sized carry pistol in 9mm, you are looking at 3 to 4 more. More is always better.
4. If expansion is your thing, a 9mm expands to damned near close to what a .45 would expand to from the same sized barrel of 3 inches.
5. Realistically, a shot from both to a vital organ will still kill you. Whether the bullet is a millimeter or 2 smaller compared to the .45, it will still kill you if let's say the heart was struck . On the flip side, a miss of a vital organ from both will produce the same result. A shot to the stomach from a .45 will not immediately kill you just the same as a shot to the stomach with a 9mm will not immediately kill you.
nortatoga
.338 Win Mag
Read more: What .22 Rifle did Bella Twin use to Kill a World Record Grizzly in 1953?
Under Creative Commons License: Attribution
Follow us: @Ammoland on Twitter | Ammoland on Facebook
What .22 Rifle did Bella Twin use to Kill a World Record Grizzly in 1953?
Ammoland Inc. Posted on November 17, 2014 by Dean Weingarten
By Dean Weingarten
Bella Twin is shown with the hide from the world record grizzly bear
Dean Weingarten
Arizona – -(Ammoland.com)- In this famous photograph by Bruno Engler, Bella Twin is shown with the hide from the world record grizzly bear that she shot in 1953 with a single shot .22 rifle. The question is, what rifle is she holding?
It has been written that Jack O'Conner “heard” that it was an old Stevens single shot. But as he only “heard” this, I do not think it is at all definitive. This is said to be from page 304 of “The Hunting Rifle”, published in 1953. Given that the bear was shot in 1953, and the reference was near the end of the book, it is just possible that O'Conner was referring to the same incident:
“One of the largest grizzlies I have ever heard of was killed by an Indian woman with one shot from an old single-shot .22 Stevens rifle.”
Another account says that the bear was dropped with one .22 long cartridge, but that another 7 or 8 shots were used to be sure that the bear stayed down. In my research, it appears that somewhere, there is a picture of the bear's skull, showing 8 or 9 holes. Note that a .22 long has about 10% more power than a .22 high velocity short, and a good bit less than a .22 long rifle cartridge.
H.V. Stent seems to have one of the best descriptions of the event on the Internet. From “Grizzly Guns” by H.V. Stent:
Bella Twin, an Indian girl, and her friend Dave Auger were hunting grouse near Lesser Slave Lake in northern Alberta. The only gun they had was Bella’s single-shot bolt-action .22 Rimfire rifle. They were walking a cutline that had been made for oil exploration when they saw a large grizzly following the same survey line toward them. If they ran, the bear would probably notice them and might chase, so they quietly sat down on a brush pile and hoped that the bear would pass by without trouble. But the bear came much too close, and when the big boar was only a few yards away, Bella Twin shot him in the side of the head with a .22 Long cartridge. The bear dropped, kicked and then lay still. Taking no chances, Bella went up close and fired all of the cartridges she had, seven or eight .22 Longs, into the bear’s head. That bear, killed in 1953, was the world-record grizzly for several years and is still high in the records today.
Here is a close up of the rifle. It appears to be a “boys” type inexpensive .22 bolt action single shot. There does not appear to be a butt pad. The forearm is quite short. For a while, I thought it might be a Tobin, but it clearly is not.
Bella Twin's 22 Rifle
A source on the net says the picture is in the book, Bruno Engler Photography by Vera Matrasova-Engler. The photograph there might show better details, and the skull photograph may be in that book as well.
Different accounts have given Ms Twin's age from “girl” to 63 or 67. Perhaps someone in Alberta has access to records that give us more definitive information.
c2014 by Dean Weingarten: Permission to share is granted when this notice is included. Link to Gun Watch
About Dean Weingarten;
Dean Weingarten has been a peace officer, a military officer, was on the University of Wisconsin Pistol Team for four years, and was first certified to teach firearms safety in 1973. He taught the Arizona concealed carry course for fifteen years until the goal of constitutional carry was attained. He has degrees in meteorology and mining engineering, and recently retired from the Department of Defense after a 30 year career in Army Research, Development, Testing, and Evaluation.
Under Creative Commons License: Attribution
Follow us: @Ammoland on Twitter | Ammoland on Facebook
What .22 Rifle did Bella Twin use to Kill a World Record Grizzly in 1953?
Ammoland Inc. Posted on November 17, 2014 by Dean Weingarten
By Dean Weingarten
Bella Twin is shown with the hide from the world record grizzly bear
Dean Weingarten
Arizona – -(Ammoland.com)- In this famous photograph by Bruno Engler, Bella Twin is shown with the hide from the world record grizzly bear that she shot in 1953 with a single shot .22 rifle. The question is, what rifle is she holding?
It has been written that Jack O'Conner “heard” that it was an old Stevens single shot. But as he only “heard” this, I do not think it is at all definitive. This is said to be from page 304 of “The Hunting Rifle”, published in 1953. Given that the bear was shot in 1953, and the reference was near the end of the book, it is just possible that O'Conner was referring to the same incident:
“One of the largest grizzlies I have ever heard of was killed by an Indian woman with one shot from an old single-shot .22 Stevens rifle.”
Another account says that the bear was dropped with one .22 long cartridge, but that another 7 or 8 shots were used to be sure that the bear stayed down. In my research, it appears that somewhere, there is a picture of the bear's skull, showing 8 or 9 holes. Note that a .22 long has about 10% more power than a .22 high velocity short, and a good bit less than a .22 long rifle cartridge.
H.V. Stent seems to have one of the best descriptions of the event on the Internet. From “Grizzly Guns” by H.V. Stent:
Bella Twin, an Indian girl, and her friend Dave Auger were hunting grouse near Lesser Slave Lake in northern Alberta. The only gun they had was Bella’s single-shot bolt-action .22 Rimfire rifle. They were walking a cutline that had been made for oil exploration when they saw a large grizzly following the same survey line toward them. If they ran, the bear would probably notice them and might chase, so they quietly sat down on a brush pile and hoped that the bear would pass by without trouble. But the bear came much too close, and when the big boar was only a few yards away, Bella Twin shot him in the side of the head with a .22 Long cartridge. The bear dropped, kicked and then lay still. Taking no chances, Bella went up close and fired all of the cartridges she had, seven or eight .22 Longs, into the bear’s head. That bear, killed in 1953, was the world-record grizzly for several years and is still high in the records today.
Here is a close up of the rifle. It appears to be a “boys” type inexpensive .22 bolt action single shot. There does not appear to be a butt pad. The forearm is quite short. For a while, I thought it might be a Tobin, but it clearly is not.
Bella Twin's 22 Rifle
A source on the net says the picture is in the book, Bruno Engler Photography by Vera Matrasova-Engler. The photograph there might show better details, and the skull photograph may be in that book as well.
Different accounts have given Ms Twin's age from “girl” to 63 or 67. Perhaps someone in Alberta has access to records that give us more definitive information.
c2014 by Dean Weingarten: Permission to share is granted when this notice is included. Link to Gun Watch
About Dean Weingarten;
Dean Weingarten has been a peace officer, a military officer, was on the University of Wisconsin Pistol Team for four years, and was first certified to teach firearms safety in 1973. He taught the Arizona concealed carry course for fifteen years until the goal of constitutional carry was attained. He has degrees in meteorology and mining engineering, and recently retired from the Department of Defense after a 30 year career in Army Research, Development, Testing, and Evaluation.
meketrefe
.450/400 Nitro Ex
remember that guy a few years back that got attacked by a Grizzly and barely escaped alive?
His partner put two rounds of 300 winmag on the bears lungs and it was charging still, then it ran
away never to be seen again leaving a trail of blood behind.
Key learning: don't fvcking play with little calibers around mighty beasts. You might get very lucky and survive
and even kill the animal but most likely, you wont.
His partner put two rounds of 300 winmag on the bears lungs and it was charging still, then it ran
away never to be seen again leaving a trail of blood behind.
Key learning: don't fvcking play with little calibers around mighty beasts. You might get very lucky and survive
and even kill the animal but most likely, you wont.
meketrefe
.450/400 Nitro Ex
That also reminds me a guy from one of the hunting forums who got charged by a grizzly in the west
and he had to empty an entire 30 round magazine of 5.45x39 to put the bear down.
He freaked out but he actually put a lot of holes on that bear until it started to make some effect.
He got a lot of heat from professional hunters and conservation folks for going into the wild unprepared
with a caliber that is not the right caliber for that type of defense.
The "poison" bullet fantasy didn't work so well for him.
Glad he survived but as a result he had to rethink his BS defensive plan.
When it comes to dangerous encounters there is no need to reinvent anything and listen to folks
who actually spend most of their lives outdoors around those type of beasts.
and he had to empty an entire 30 round magazine of 5.45x39 to put the bear down.
He freaked out but he actually put a lot of holes on that bear until it started to make some effect.
He got a lot of heat from professional hunters and conservation folks for going into the wild unprepared
with a caliber that is not the right caliber for that type of defense.
The "poison" bullet fantasy didn't work so well for him.
Glad he survived but as a result he had to rethink his BS defensive plan.
When it comes to dangerous encounters there is no need to reinvent anything and listen to folks
who actually spend most of their lives outdoors around those type of beasts.
gun_slinger_boy
.338 Win Mag
I gotta ask. If the bear was never tracked how did they know the shots hit the lungs?
meketrefe
.450/400 Nitro Ex
The guy was a few feet from the bear and had to wait to take the shots to avoid hitting his partner who was being mauled to death.
I have some of the pics from the other guy who emptied an AK74 magazine on another grizzly before it went down. It is illegal to put them down like that unless is a charge and people are at risk.
The conservation officer counted the wholes on that bear.
If you read the Lewis and Clark expedition they talk about how they thought they were missing the bear only to find out
they had hit the bear with 10 or 15 shots of 50 caliber balls before it went down.
All the guys on the expedition were very good marksman with their muskets.
They wrote... "I understand now why the natives call them 'hard to kill'
This is reality and there is no recall button unlike video games.